Gun Control and Mass Murder

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Fooloso4
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Fooloso4 »

Spiral Out:

I did not write the OP.
My mistake. Sorry.
Going by the logic of gun control, we must now ban refrigerated trucks.
Going by the logic of gun control, operators of trucks would be required to have a valid driver’s license, vehicles would be prevented from entering certain areas, and measures would be taken to make vehicles safer to operate. In other words, to continue doing what we are already doing with most things except guns that pose a threat to the public. This has not prevented violent acts committed with trucks, but they are sensible measures that have been clearly demonstrated to have been an effective way to improve the safety of all.

Now, why not apply to same logic to guns?

No sensible argument takes as its premise that eliminating guns eliminates violence. On the other hand, no sensible argument can be made that ignores the fact that guns are involved in the majority of mass murders. One might object that bombs dropped from airplanes or drones are responsible for more deaths, but even those who are against restrictions on guns see the wisdom of not making weaponized airplanes and drones available to the public. Vehicular homicide is nothing new, but relatively rare. If there is a proliferation of killing via motor vehicles on the scale of gun violence, there will be strong support in favor of further restrictions, including support by gun advocates. Airline restrictions are a good example.
Supine
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Supine »

Rederic wrote:For Christs sake, how many more times. Nobody is talking about banning guns. Just making gun control more effective. It amazes me that you can't find any merit in the idea. Or is it that you are more comfortable arguing about the banning of guns.
America can be safer but that depends on the quality of its citizens and not on more laws. The Soviet Union punished homosexuality with time in prison and modern Russia doesn't with a massive rise in the HIV rate.

Frankly, most your gun related homicides in the United States are carried out by Black-American males on other Black-American males, and most of those are between black males involved in criminal activity or that have felonies.

You can punish law abiding citizens for felons shooting each other, and you can punish heterosexuals for homosexuals contracting HIV, or you can not impose tyranny of the Soviet style on either and allow felons, criminals, and homosexuals to take the risks involved in their behavioral choices.

As someone said, do you think that the USA has a problem with mass killings using assault rifles or other firearms? If you don't then I'm afraid you're being particularly obtuse.
Does it have a problem with Muslim terrorists?

I've never known a Muslim to kill anyone, and I've never known an American to commit mass murder.

In theory you could solve the Muslim terrorist problem in the USA (mass murder) by "regulating" Muslims specifically, while you deny the former Navy SEAL with two combat tours a civilian model AR-15, as outlawing the off duty cop and former Navy SEAL an AR-15 will in theory reduce mass shootings in the USA. Just like reducing the number of Muslims in the USA or specifically targeting Muslims for covert surveillance will reduce Islamic motivated terrorist mass shooting and bombings in the USA.

I'm speaking as a survivor of the mass murder, Holocaust, of unborn children in the USA. A survivor.

Just curious as to how much "life" really matters to the anti-gun crowd?
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Empiricist-Bruno
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Spiral Out wrote:
Empiricist-Bruno wrote:S. O. are you obfuscating? You are now saying that that violence is an act. But acts are used for certain purposes, aren't they? If an act is used to cause intentional harm/injury to another, then is not factually implied that this act is also the means to cause intentional harm/injury to another?
I understand what you're saying Bruno, but I view the act and the means as individual factors. The act is separate from the means. The act is murder. The means can be anything. The means has nothing to do with the intent of the actor. It is merely a device used to achieve that intent.
The act and the means are individual factors? I see. S.O., according to you, Violence= Murder (factor a) X Means (factor b). Am I posting here a fair representation of your thinking? Or were you using mathematical language only as a some sort of obfuscating metaphor? Or...?

Furthermore, if the act (murder) is separate from the means (murderous means?) Would that not imply that we can have an act (murder) without the means? Please provide a sample, if you can. Is digestion a phenomenon separate from food because digestion can involve any kind of food? I'd love to have an answer from you on this one. And if anyone else on this forum thinks he/she has the answer to that one, please enlighten me.

You then move on to argue that the means has nothing to do with the intent of the actor (here I presume Murderer since "the act is murder.") But what does the intent of the actor has to do with violence?

Are you now saying that the means does not reveals the intent of the actor? That sounds reasonable. A gun can fire accidentally and kill someone. Such victimization does not necessarily informs us as to the intent of the person who fired the gun. S.O. are you now suggesting a non-violent death is one that occurred when a gun was fired accidentally? Am I stretching what you are saying too much?

If violence isn't its means, then we really have nothing to talk about when we talk about it or at least nothing to talk about that I can see. In my opinion, your obscure definition of violence which makes any discussion on that topic with you somewhat difficult.

A gun by itself is never a means to violence; a means to violence is someone pulling the trigger of a loaded gun. A gun by itself is an object that has violent potential but only according to my category one of violence, a category that you appear not to recognize.

When people outlaw guns thinking that they outlaw the means to violence, they are either wrong or are just choosing the wrong words to express themselves. What they are outlawing is a potential for violence. Potential for violence can be found in just about every thing but guns do seem to have more potential than most other objects.
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Rederic
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Rederic »

In the last five years, more Americans have been killed by police than muslim jihadists.
Also, more Americans have been killed by lightning than have been killed by jihadists.
Religion is at its best when it makes us ask hard questions of ourselves.
It is at its worst when it deludes us into thinking we have all the answers for everybody else.
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Supine
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Supine »

Rederic wrote:In the last five years, more Americans have been killed by police than muslim jihadists.
Also, more Americans have been killed by lightning than have been killed by jihadists.
In other words this is your indirect way of saying you oppose saving American lives by either banning Muslims from coming to the US or gaining citizenship, or putting special surveillance on them to regulate them, knowing full well some Americans will be killed (by gun fire or bombs) by Islamic motivated terrorists.

Very few Americans (there are over 300 million people living in the USA, which is the 3rd most populated nation on earth) are killed in mass shootings. Mass shootings actually make up a tiny fraction of all American gun related violence. I suspect most Americans are more likely to be killed in an auto accident than to be shot let alone killed in a mass shooting.

In other words, an American being victim of a mass shooting is very unlikely. And I concur that Americans being victim of a Muslim jihadist is unlikely.

Why is it I neither fear 1, 2, 3, 20 of my neighbors on my block owning assault rifles, and I neither fear Muslims, I don't even fear Muslims that might be my neighbors that also have assault rifles. I don't fear armed American police either. I have spoken to quite a few openly armed American police on the streets. Pretty cool people for the most part. I've even been stopped and questioned by some numerous times. Which can be an annoyance.

And after being shot I've even developed a phobia about guns pointed at me or the potential of being shot. A literal, psychological phobia. Many years prior to that I developed a psychological phobia and inability to handle loud noises, fire works, gun shots, cars back firing etc., due likely to my former time in the Gulf War. At that time I was even too psychologically rattled, frightened, to touch even the smallest hand gun. I've since overcome most of that post-Gulf War stuff. Fire works are no longer a big problem for me and I'm not frightened to touch a firearm any longer.

As far as cops shooting Americans more than jihadists have killed Americans, well I reckon that's a combination of American police very aggressive tactics, itchy trigger fingers, "blue lies" on police reports in which officers lie for one another, as well as the fact Americans, secular Americans, are a more violent, destructive, hate filled, murderous people than your typical Muslim. And therefore, American police to protect their own lives are forced to use deadly force on secular Americans more than they would be on Muslims.

For the record I'm all for allowing massive waves of Muslims into the USA. I don't care if the USA or some states or cities in the USA become predominately Muslim. In fact I welcome it. The Muslims will better protect and respect me than the "Americans."

-- Updated July 20th, 2016, 12:42 pm to add the following --

What's known under the English title as "Elite Squad" is a fictional based story drawn from real life culture and things done in one of the world's foremost elite police "SWAT" teams, the Brazilian BOPE of Rio de Janeiro. Co-written as a book by a former military officer in BOPE along with an academic Brazilian sociologist.

The main character in the movie is the "captain" in the first clip. In the first scene below he struggles with--presumably--PTSD and he's rattled, shaken, and mentally falling apart. He can barely take gun battles, any form of violence, but he somehow pulls himself to work each day and functions. Though not in the clip in most of the movie his hand trembles when he goes home. Until a person in his unit is killed. When the warrior in him re-emerges his hands no longer shake and he's no longer apprehensive.

Brazil is awashed in firearms. And it's mostly the police, military, gangs, and the very rich with armed body guards who have guns. The poor and middle-class because of string gun control laws are left defenseless to the oligarchs of violence.

In the first clip below the Pope has stated he is coming to Brazil and wants to stay in a favela or near one. So, Brazilian authorities gave orders to BOPE to passify the favela the Pope will be staying in before he arrives. That's the setting.

In the second clip it's from movie part 2: Elite Squad 2.

The main character is no longer in BOPE, promoted to a higher position, retains loyalties in BOPE, and some of them back him up when he takes on corrupt cops who in this secene try to ambush and kill him.

Good to have a gun on you if you're ambushed.
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LuckyR
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by LuckyR »

Gary S wrote:Opinions please: From a practical standpoint, if gun control was enacted to disarm the United States population, would the various government agencies still be armed? Police, FBI, Constables, Secret Service, Bailiffs, U.S Marshals, etc?

Would private licensed security guards still be allowed to be armed?
Very curious. Essentially no one who is serious about this issue either wants disarmament or expects it to happen. Why jump to that unrealistic extreme? (As opposed to more reasonable, yet similarly not voted upon ones like: no gun purchases by folks on the No Fly List, or no > 30 bullet magazines, or no easily semi-auto to full-auto conversions?)
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Sy Borg
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

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Doesn't matter which way you slice or dice it, more guns will equal more gun deaths. If about half the population owned bows and arrows there would be more bow and arrow deaths. The issue is utility - guns, especially modern guns, are the best possible weapon for killing, and are relatively cheap and accessible (in the US). Guns are the most lethal of personal weaponry.

I used to work in OH&S, and licensing and registration of dangerous equipment - used by trained professionals, not just dabblers - is routine. There's no drama because everyone knows that the rules are there for good reason.

Clearly lax regulation of dangerous equipment in the hands of millions of relatively untrained, inexperienced and under-supervised users is a massive risk, borne out by a gun death rate in the US that is incomparable amongst developed countries.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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LuckyR
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by LuckyR »

Greta wrote:Doesn't matter which way you slice or dice it, more guns will equal more gun deaths. If about half the population owned bows and arrows there would be more bow and arrow deaths. The issue is utility - guns, especially modern guns, are the best possible weapon for killing, and are relatively cheap and accessible (in the US). Guns are the most lethal of personal weaponry.

I used to work in OH&S, and licensing and registration of dangerous equipment - used by trained professionals, not just dabblers - is routine. There's no drama because everyone knows that the rules are there for good reason.

Clearly lax regulation of dangerous equipment in the hands of millions of relatively untrained, inexperienced and under-supervised users is a massive risk, borne out by a gun death rate in the US that is incomparable amongst developed countries.
Good point. Based on YouTube "evidence", gun deaths would be lowered by regulating beer...
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Empiricist-Bruno
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

If we had beer regulation, I'm pretty sure that there is one sucker punch in the face that I have received that I would not have received. And I doubt I could not be happy with a regulated supply of it. This makes me wonder about whom it is that want or oppose regulation, predators or prey? Is regulation for predators or for prey? Who cares if the USA has a high rate of gun deaths? Doesn't preventable heart disease causes way more deaths than gun deaths and so it would make more sense with regulating the sale of chips and other trans-fat products, if saving lots of lives were the issue.

And, as another pointed out, outlawing abortion might also save human lives but that surely wouldn't sit well with the predators. Trump appears to me to be a major predator; he will not save lives, he will make himself (the USA) great again. And people vote for him. The question perhaps should be, "if you support predation and exploitation can any form of regulation work for you, or is it just a hypocritical political gimmick or pretense of caring best applied to others in the process of exploiting them?"

This might also explain why it is so hard to get people to regulate what is essentially a predator's favorite drug: guns. It can't be bad, right?
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Supine
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Supine »

LuckyR wrote:
Gary S wrote:Opinions please: From a practical standpoint, if gun control was enacted to disarm the United States population, would the various government agencies still be armed? Police, FBI, Constables, Secret Service, Bailiffs, U.S Marshals, etc?

Would private licensed security guards still be allowed to be armed?
Very curious. Essentially no one who is serious about this issue either wants disarmament or expects it to happen. Why jump to that unrealistic extreme? (As opposed to more reasonable, yet similarly not voted upon ones like: no gun purchases by folks on the No Fly List, or no > 30 bullet magazines, or no easily semi-auto to full-auto conversions?)
Just as an FYI. One of the most sane, tolerant, intelligent American I know (he's also an Army war vet of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars) was placed on the "No Fly List." He only found out when he went to the airport to buy a ticket. He surmises it must have been due to his unorthodox American political views. He's non-religious and morally liberal. He's big into philosophy and has some of his own self described socio-political beliefs. He's more or less a left-wing libertarian.

But he offers criticisms of both the Democratic Party and Republican Party and some of the things the US Government has been involved in. Apparently, this is enough to get an intelligent, young, white, American male put on the No Fly List. :lol: America is no land of the free, that is for sure, and under Democrats and Republicans they'd both love to march America more and more into a model of Nazi Germany. But with their respective ideologies.

You can turn any semi-auto weapon into a fully automatic weapon. It is illegal but anyone of them can be done. Apparently, people can make their own home made bombs too.

The magazine thing is mostly an emotionally charged issue. I mean really, all you have to do is carry more magazines on you and you become just as lethal. :roll:
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Sy Borg
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Sy Borg »

LuckyR wrote:
Greta wrote:Doesn't matter which way you slice or dice it, more guns will equal more gun deaths. If about half the population owned bows and arrows there would be more bow and arrow deaths. The issue is utility - guns, especially modern guns, are the best possible weapon for killing, and are relatively cheap and accessible (in the US). Guns are the most lethal of personal weaponry.

I used to work in OH&S, and licensing and registration of dangerous equipment - used by trained professionals, not just dabblers - is routine. There's no drama because everyone knows that the rules are there for good reason.

Clearly lax regulation of dangerous equipment in the hands of millions of relatively untrained, inexperienced and under-supervised users is a massive risk, borne out by a gun death rate in the US that is incomparable amongst developed countries.
Good point. Based on YouTube "evidence", gun deaths would be lowered by regulating beer...
As regards workplace safety, alcohol is forbidden in many circumstances, aside from regulations around blood alcohol levels when in control of any motorised vehicle.

I just provide the above for completeness' sake. I long ago given up the idea of even slightly influencing anyone on this issue.

Yes, and just a reminder to all, while the OP spoke about gun bans, that's obviously completely misguided because, post-prohibition, not a single western democracy has considered banning guns any more than they have considered banning beer. Aside from politics and logistics, regulators know that prohibition of highly popular products only serves to foster organised crime, a dynamic clearly demonstrated by decades of weed and drug prohibition.

As I have always maintained, societies do get smarter through experience, not linearly of course, but ultimately because past lessons build up. Of course many lessons are forgotten, but not all. So I'm an optimistic that the US will eventually rationally regulate the ownership and use of military weaponry in civilian society, though not in my own lifetime. Good luck to them, and hopefully Australia and other democracies have learned from the US's mistakes.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
Supine
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Supine »

Greta wrote: Clearly lax regulation of dangerous equipment in the hands of millions of relatively untrained, inexperienced and under-supervised users is a massive risk, borne out by a gun death rate in the US that is incomparable amongst developed countries.
Yeah, that's why the American police shot this dude, because American police "lack training." :lol:

yahoo.com/news/police-shoot-autistic-ma ... 04807.html
Police shoot autistic man's caretaker as he lies in street
There are millions of firearms in the hands of law abiding Americans. I hate that term "law abiding" (as I think almost everyone is a potential criminal put in the right scenario and under the right stresses) but I have to use Republican rhetoric to counter misconceptions. The best Americans with pistol craft and rifle marksmanship aren't cops and US military personnel. Usually they are American civilians committed to firearms training.

True, most American civilians, at least of urban dwellers, don't shot that well and have received little to no training. I can shoot better than most of these. But your American rural people, small town people, that are gun enthusiasts (even the urban ones) generally can shoot 1,000 times better than I can.

Anyways, I would argue the better trained, the better shot you are then the more dangerous and lethal as an adversary or "terrorist" you become.

The guy that can't shoot is mostly a threat to people standing around me (innocent bystanders) when he's shooting "at me," and unless he gets lucky he's not much of a threat to me. Not at a distance. Up close is a bit different. When Vice Lord gang members shot at me that was almost like them giving me a hand job. Fortunately for me it was not a Navy SEAL shooting at me or otherwise I'd probably be dead. Them fools couldn't even hit my car driving at semi-slow speed. :lol: The Navy SEAL would have shot my car up and probably hit me too.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Sy Borg »

Supine wrote:
Greta wrote: Clearly lax regulation of dangerous equipment in the hands of millions of relatively untrained, inexperienced and under-supervised users is a massive risk, borne out by a gun death rate in the US that is incomparable amongst developed countries.
Yeah, that's why the American police shot this dude, because American police "lack training." :lol:
Isolated anecdotes don't constitute an argument.

Psychopathy and a tendency towards violence are also factors taken into account in workplace safety assessments.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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Ormond
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Ormond »

Greta wrote:So I'm an optimistic that the US will eventually rationally regulate the ownership and use of military weaponry in civilian society, though not in my own lifetime.
I'll give you my thermonuclear weapons and long range ballistic missiles when you pry them from my cold dead hands! The second amendment of the U.S. constitution guarantees my right to vaporize any major cities which I find annoying. It gives me the right to kill small defenseless animals with high powered rifles, from a safe distance of course. If I don't like the sermon at my church I have the right to spray the congregation with automatic weapons fire. And now, the Republican Party platform gives me the right to waste any of those LTBQRXM, whatever they are, queers practicing unnatural marriage within the privacy of their own homes.

That's right my friends, this is America, land of the ME!, and home of the crazed.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.
Londoner
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Re: Gun Control and Mass Murder

Post by Londoner »

I think it is a waste of time to argue about US gun ownership as if it was a practical problem. People like guns because they make those who are physically weak feel powerful. If you own a gun then, no matter how unhealthy or unadventurous you really are, you are potentially the hero of every action film. No matter how life humiliates you, you are comforted by the possibility of taking a spectacular revenge.

That is America's choice. The only mystery is why they seem so reluctant to accept the consequences. Every time somebody shoots a politician, or some shopkeeper, or their wife, or a load of small children, they go on as if it was some awful tragedy and we should be sad about it!
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