Should we obey government?

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Post Number:#16  Postby Musa » February 16th, 2009, 11:39 am

When you live in a country, you have a contract with the Government. The contract is that you obey the laws, and in return, you are granted rights and protection. If the Government fails to offer adequate rights, or fails to offer protection, you should be willing to break the law to ensure safety and rights. If there is an unjust law, I see no reason to keep it. But if the laws are fair and make sense, and the Government is not immoral, you should obey the law.
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Post Number:#17  Postby magicmusician » February 17th, 2009, 6:02 am

Ok first off I want to say that I do NOT agree with the holocaust or any other form of ethnic clensing or racism

However some of what the nazi party originally did was sheer genius

If you travel along the autobahns in Germany you will often see fruit trees planted and growing and producing good fruits
They were planted at the run up to the war so the soldiers would have easy access to sugar in the form of those fruits

As a part of their principles thye believed in hard work and an honest pay for that honest work

Thats a summary of the good parts - then one man who was a master orator and someone who was incredibly good at getting peoples attention used scaremongery and propganda to full effect

I can only hope that we can one day get an orator of his standard in UK politics. And use that for good

Now most laws seem to come from a religious background

Theft (thou shalt not steal)
Murder (thou shalt not commit murder)
Thou shalt not commit adultery

and a LOT of laws regarding sexuality come from the bible too

Rightly or wrongly thats where laws come from in the UK
I would guess that in eastern countries laws there come from scriptures like the Quoran (sp)
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Re: Should we obey government?

Post Number:#18  Postby Vlad » February 21st, 2009, 7:55 am

cynicallyinsane wrote:I don't see any reason why we obey the government so much. Why do we do it? Clearly if most of us didn't respect most laws, then they would have no power over us.

It depends how much of a coward you are, or rather how much value you put on doing the right thing versus your life and liberty.

If you are afraid to be assassinated -- or worse, then get in-line. If you are prepared for solitary confinement for fifty years, then rebel.

As you say, most of us don't respect the laws, but we do respect our fear.
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Post Number:#19  Postby anarchyisbliss » February 22nd, 2009, 8:50 pm

magicmusician wrote:Ok first off I want to say that I do NOT agree with the holocaust or any other form of ethnic clensing or racism

However some of what the nazi party originally did was sheer genius


Don't be too cautious to express that opinion. You are completely right. With the exception of one, BIG, pretty obvious problem, the NAZI regime was brilliant.
"If there is hope, it lies in the proles." - George Orwell, 1984
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Post Number:#20  Postby Martin Ekdahl » February 23rd, 2009, 7:05 am

anarchyisbliss wrote:
magicmusician wrote:Ok first off I want to say that I do NOT agree with the holocaust or any other form of ethnic clensing or racism

However some of what the nazi party originally did was sheer genius
the NAZI regime was brilliant.


How do you mean?
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Post Number:#21  Postby Belinda » February 23rd, 2009, 7:18 am

I wondered that too . I take it that what was meant was the basic fallacy that some genetic strains of men are so much the best that all other inferior men must be killed off.

The autobahns and volkswagens are good though.
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Post Number:#22  Postby anarchyisbliss » February 23rd, 2009, 6:24 pm

Hitler/The NAZIs banned genetically modified organisms from the German food system, the promoted a vegan lifestyle with a low environmental impact, they built the safest highway in the world, the promoted environmental protection, the lowered the unemployment rate to an international low, and Germany had the lowest recorded crime rate under their regime.

They did one bad thing: The Holocaust, but a lot of good things that they don't get credit for. At least in American history classes.
"If there is hope, it lies in the proles." - George Orwell, 1984
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Post Number:#23  Postby Martin Ekdahl » February 24th, 2009, 5:44 am

anarchyisbliss wrote:Hitler/The NAZIs banned genetically modified organisms from the German food system, the promoted a vegan lifestyle with a low environmental impact, they built the safest highway in the world, the promoted environmental protection, the lowered the unemployment rate to an international low, and Germany had the lowest recorded crime rate under their regime.

They did one bad thing: The Holocaust, but a lot of good things that they don't get credit for. At least in American history classes.


Okey: I'm a vegetarian myself so I like vegetarianism being promoted. But, Hitlers impact both on public health and environment/animals?. I just don't know. The highway was good for it's time. But today it is called the great Autobahn Infarct. I would know, because I live in Germany. And about unemployment/crime rates? Well, if you kill everyone that you find suspicious, kill all disabled and "weak", send millions to kill and die on the front, promote children to generals.. you will have no crime/unemployment anymore and no people either. I find a government that under so short time destroys so much infrastructure, population and in the end doesn't manage to even exist everything but brilliant. Even Mugabe or Kim Il Sung must have credit of being more brilliant than those buffoons.
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Post Number:#24  Postby anarchyisbliss » February 24th, 2009, 6:28 pm

Martin Ekdahl wrote:
anarchyisbliss wrote:Hitler/The NAZIs banned genetically modified organisms from the German food system, the promoted a vegan lifestyle with a low environmental impact, they built the safest highway in the world, the promoted environmental protection, the lowered the unemployment rate to an international low, and Germany had the lowest recorded crime rate under their regime.

They did one bad thing: The Holocaust, but a lot of good things that they don't get credit for. At least in American history classes.


Okey: I'm a vegetarian myself so I like vegetarianism being promoted. But, Hitlers impact both on public health and environment/animals?. I just don't know. The highway was good for it's time. But today it is called the great Autobahn Infarct. I would know, because I live in Germany. And about unemployment/crime rates? Well, if you kill everyone that you find suspicious, kill all disabled and "weak", send millions to kill and die on the front, promote children to generals.. you will have no crime/unemployment anymore and no people either. I find a government that under so short time destroys so much infrastructure, population and in the end doesn't manage to even exist everything but brilliant. Even Mugabe or Kim Il Sung must have credit of being more brilliant than those buffoons.


I am also a vegetarian, and it is nice to see other vegetarians on the forum. What you say about the crime rates and population is true. But the NAZIs did do a lot to help the environment and promote vegetarianism. I'm not saying that they were a perfect government, but they weren't completely horrible either.
"If there is hope, it lies in the proles." - George Orwell, 1984
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Re: Should we obey government?

Post Number:#25  Postby Play_Dough » February 24th, 2009, 6:50 pm

cynicallyinsane wrote:I don't see any reason why we obey the government so much. Why do we do it? Clearly if most of us didn't respect most laws, then they would have no power over us.


Obediance to government is a 'provision' of our social contract.
However, we do have a duty to disobey laws which are oppressive.

The distinction (in a democracy) between 'us' and 'government' is illusory.... except when (like now) 'government' has been (gradually) hijacked by big business (lobbyists - PAC's, etc.) to the detriment of the citizen.

Viva la revolution!


.
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Post Number:#26  Postby df544 » February 24th, 2009, 11:11 pm

I live in New York City. People are law-abiding for the most part but individual belief systems separate people by socio-economic and ethnic categories.

In this city, first of all, you do not see neighborhoods with 50/50 blacks and whites. Nor 50/50 asians and blacks nor 50/50 whites and asians. For the most part people who identify with ethnicity reject other ethnicities. This is the fault of individuals.

Hitler made an observation and that is that differing ethnicities cannot unite. It cannot happen. His problem was his way of getting rid of Jews not actually the idea of unifying a group of people.

Problem with talking about Hitler is that people want to target you as anti-semitic if you agree with anything he did.

But the truth is the truth. The great experiment that is America with different ethnicities and different religions is a failure. America is not united. It is devisive. That is the truth.

One thing that is true, however, is that as long as you respect boundaries we don't kill each other because, for the most part people obey the law.
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Post Number:#27  Postby Belinda » February 25th, 2009, 7:55 am

For the most part people who identify with ethnicity reject other ethnicities. This is the fault of individuals.


Identifying with any idea is bad, whether the idea is ethnicity, religion, skin pigmentation, sex, age, income, education level, profession or trade, whatever concept.

Identifying with an idea is in fact idolatry which is bad because idolatry does divide people into in-groups and out-groups.Idolatry leading to divisiveness is very much with us as you observe.

The American way is I understand to superimpose
Americanism on the various sub-identities through the American way of life,and indoctrination in schools and the media.In the regrettable absence of feelings that all men are men like any other men, some such was suggested for Britain's tribal ills, although without the colourful ceremonies that go on in America, and immigrants are now expected to integrate linguistically at least and are encouraged to socialise and also to obey British laws.
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Post Number:#28  Postby Martin Ekdahl » February 25th, 2009, 8:07 am

anarchyisbliss wrote:
Martin Ekdahl wrote:
anarchyisbliss wrote:Hitler/The NAZIs banned genetically modified organisms from the German food system, the promoted a vegan lifestyle with a low environmental impact, they built the safest highway in the world, the promoted environmental protection, the lowered the unemployment rate to an international low, and Germany had the lowest recorded crime rate under their regime.

They did one bad thing: The Holocaust, but a lot of good things that they don't get credit for. At least in American history classes.


Okey: I'm a vegetarian myself so I like vegetarianism being promoted. But, Hitlers impact both on public health and environment/animals?. I just don't know. The highway was good for it's time. But today it is called the great Autobahn Infarct. I would know, because I live in Germany. And about unemployment/crime rates? Well, if you kill everyone that you find suspicious, kill all disabled and "weak", send millions to kill and die on the front, promote children to generals.. you will have no crime/unemployment anymore and no people either. I find a government that under so short time destroys so much infrastructure, population and in the end doesn't manage to even exist everything but brilliant. Even Mugabe or Kim Il Sung must have credit of being more brilliant than those buffoons.


I am also a vegetarian, and it is nice to see other vegetarians on the forum. What you say about the crime rates and population is true. But the NAZIs did do a lot to help the environment and promote vegetarianism. I'm not saying that they were a perfect government, but they weren't completely horrible either.


In the case of promoting vegetarianism I think the Nazis caused more antagonism than goodwill. It is a standing statement I hear every time I talk with people about vegetarianism: "So you are a vegetarian? Did you know Hitler was a vegetarian?". The logic goes Nazis=Vegetarians hence Vegetarians=Nazis. For that reason must I not only explain Why I am a vegetarian, but also that I am not a militant vegan (which I by all given logic must be:roll:) plus that vegetarianism doesn't have anything to do with Nazism.
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Post Number:#29  Postby df544 » February 28th, 2009, 6:07 pm

We should obey the laws.

We should trust the government in passing the highest laws.

In a democracy where 50% of the population are hypnotised by the Bible it's amazing that the USA even exists.
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Post Number:#30  Postby anarchyisbliss » February 28th, 2009, 9:56 pm

Martin Ekdahl wrote:
anarchyisbliss wrote:
Martin Ekdahl wrote:
anarchyisbliss wrote:Hitler/The NAZIs banned genetically modified organisms from the German food system, the promoted a vegan lifestyle with a low environmental impact, they built the safest highway in the world, the promoted environmental protection, the lowered the unemployment rate to an international low, and Germany had the lowest recorded crime rate under their regime.

They did one bad thing: The Holocaust, but a lot of good things that they don't get credit for. At least in American history classes.


Okey: I'm a vegetarian myself so I like vegetarianism being promoted. But, Hitlers impact both on public health and environment/animals?. I just don't know. The highway was good for it's time. But today it is called the great Autobahn Infarct. I would know, because I live in Germany. And about unemployment/crime rates? Well, if you kill everyone that you find suspicious, kill all disabled and "weak", send millions to kill and die on the front, promote children to generals.. you will have no crime/unemployment anymore and no people either. I find a government that under so short time destroys so much infrastructure, population and in the end doesn't manage to even exist everything but brilliant. Even Mugabe or Kim Il Sung must have credit of being more brilliant than those buffoons.


I am also a vegetarian, and it is nice to see other vegetarians on the forum. What you say about the crime rates and population is true. But the NAZIs did do a lot to help the environment and promote vegetarianism. I'm not saying that they were a perfect government, but they weren't completely horrible either.


In the case of promoting vegetarianism I think the Nazis caused more antagonism than goodwill. It is a standing statement I hear every time I talk with people about vegetarianism: "So you are a vegetarian? Did you know Hitler was a vegetarian?". The logic goes Nazis=Vegetarians hence Vegetarians=Nazis. For that reason must I not only explain Why I am a vegetarian, but also that I am not a militant vegan (which I by all given logic must be:roll:) plus that vegetarianism doesn't have anything to do with Nazism.


That may be true. People should be vegetarian by choice, not by force. Although I'm sure that the rest of the planet enjoyed that short period of time in which the environment was being harmed a little less. And yes, it would be very ignorant to say that because Hitler was a vegetarian that vegetarianism must correlate to Nazism.
"If there is hope, it lies in the proles." - George Orwell, 1984
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