Should People Be Allowed to Own Guns?
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Re: Should People Be Allowed to Own Guns?
- Ascendant606
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Re: Should People Be Allowed to Own Guns?
Yes I fear people, and I fear the wepon because the person uses the weapon.Spiral Out wrote:
Can you give me just one reason why I should not be able to possess a fully-automatic assault rifle? Can you find even one justifiable reason?
Isn't it true that it's people that you fear, not the weapons they choose to use against you?
Is it OK to carry swords instead of guns? What about chains? What about clubs? What about any other weapon? What about a tool that can be used as a weapon? Are you anti-weapon for some reason? Are you just a fearful person?
The reason I don't think you should be able to own an assault riffle is becuase you might use it on me. So I go out and by my own assult riffle, so if you use it on me I can use mine on you. Simple right? But now my neighbour Jeff doesn't like me or trust me so he goes out and buys an assult riffle. But George doesn't like or trust Jeff either so he goes out and buys an assult riffle. And it goes on and on untill everyone has an assult riffle.
But here's the problem: If you are a king and you have an army, you want to use your army. If you are a person and own a gun, you want to use your gun. So lets say your attractive 110 pound neighbour Jessica gets a night time visitor she uses her gun, and shoots. He has a gun and he starts shooting. You hear gunfire, so you grab your gun to "help" Jessica, being the white knight you are. But so does Jeff. Jeff gets there and sees you with your gun. He thinks you are responsible and he shoots you. Then George comes and shoots Jeff, and so on untill it becomes a full out massacre and innocent people die.
The scenario is very unlikely, but it is an example on how distrust coupled with the ownership of well made machines to kill can turn very bad very quick.
So to get to the point, I don't beleive that people should own guns. now knives? yes. If Jessica had a knife and stabbed the man when he approached her none of the blood of innocents would have been spilled. Knives were not meant for slaughter, and I would feel safe knowing that I had a knife along with the rest of the population.
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Re: Should People Be Allowed to Own Guns?
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Re: Should People Be Allowed to Own Guns?
And the number of non-incidents by responsible gun owners far outweighs the number of suicides, murders and accidental deaths combined. Do you wish to continue engaging in contextual statistic-twisting? Because I can do it all day long.Quotidian wrote:The number of deaths prevented by so-called 'good shooters' is far outweighed by the number of suicides, murders, and accidental deaths and injuries caused by high rates of gun ownership.
I suppose you are referring to those "statistics". Statistics are garbage.Quotidian wrote:It is logical to fear the consequences of widespread gun ownership, the negative consequences of which are empirically demonstrable.
The ani-gun lobby is a political agenda. The tactics of appealing to fears and using meaningless statistics are used by both sides. And we go around in circles.Quotidian wrote:Rational fear vs exploiting fear for a political agenda based on a false notion of the meaning of democratic freedom.
You still have not given me one valid reason I cannot own an assault rifle. You don't have an answer, do you.
And what will the search parameters be? Statistics are highly manipulable, as evidenced above. It's not the number of "incidents" you are claiming, but the reference you are using to make the number look bigger or smaller in relation. I can take any statistic that you provide and turn it around on you simply by using some other reference.Xris wrote:The statistics are easy to find if you google.
For every murder committed by husbands, wives or friends there are thousands of non-incidents by responsible gun owners. Do you want to keep going?Xris wrote:For every thief that is shot there are at least sixty murders committed by husbands, wives or friends.
Indeed, why not? You still have not told me why I cannot have an assault rifle but the local guy on the swat team can. Or why the Army Reserves guy can. Or why the police officer, as a civilian, can.Xris wrote:Why not an assault rifle?
I can kill thirty people in one push of the gas pedal in my F-350 Super Duty.Xris wrote:Why in hell would you want a weapon that can kill thirty people in less than a minute from one magazine?
And the police are the ultimate authority because....Xris wrote:If you want a gun for some strange reasoning you need a police license that entails training and education.
Which would prove....Xris wrote:A secure gun cupboard and most importantly a brain scan.
They don't have to be essential. They only have to be fun for us to have. I don't understand the English mentality that every gun owner is deranged and wants a gun for violent or paranoid purposes.Xris wrote:I just don't understand the American attitude that guns are essential.
BITTER SARCASM.Xris wrote:The wild west ended hundred years ago folks. There are no more redskins lurking in the woods. The boggy man from the government ain't going to rob you of your freedom.
We really don't care about the UK perspective.Xris wrote:From A UK perspective you are all just little mad to even consider wanting a gun.
Innocent children are not killed for the right to carry a gun. Stop the word games. Nobody is buying it.Xris wrote:It begs belief when so many innocent children are killed for your archaic right to carrya gun.
Finally some honesty.Ascendant606 wrote:Yes I fear people, and I fear the wepon because the person uses the weapon.
It sure is simple. And since I will not use mine on you, all is good.Ascendant606 wrote:The reason I don't think you should be able to own an assault riffle is becuase you might use it on me. So I go out and by my own assult riffle, so if you use it on me I can use mine on you. Simple right?
That's an extreme example. Assault rifles are very expensive. People don't just "go out and get one". But as long as these assault rifles are owned by responsible people then there is no issue. And if Jeff is the felon among the bunch then he's out of luck. It's still the people that are the problem, not the assault rifles.Ascendant606 wrote:But now my neighbour Jeff doesn't like me or trust me so he goes out and buys an assult riffle. But George doesn't like or trust Jeff either so he goes out and buys an assult riffle. And it goes on and on untill everyone has an assult riffle.
That's absolutely not the case. I have multiple guns that I have never used against anyone, and most likely never will, and have not even used at the range in years. I'm not "itching" to use them either. That's simply not how it works.Ascendant606 wrote:But here's the problem: If you are a king and you have an army, you want to use your army. If you are a person and own a gun, you want to use your gun.
Negative. I stay put and call 911.Ascendant606 wrote:So lets say your attractive 110 pound neighbour Jessica gets a night time visitor she uses her gun, and shoots. He has a gun and he starts shooting. You hear gunfire, so you grab your gun to "help" Jessica, being the white knight you are.
That would never happen. EVER. Real people don't act in this manner. Can you show me one real news story about a chain-reaction such as this?Ascendant606 wrote:But so does Jeff. Jeff gets there and sees you with your gun. He thinks you are responsible and he shoots you. Then George comes and shoots Jeff, and so on untill it becomes a full out massacre and innocent people die.
Very unlikely? It's very much less than that. It's an example of anti-gun paranoid imagination.Ascendant606 wrote:The scenario is very unlikely, but it is an example on how distrust coupled with the ownership of well made machines to kill can turn very bad very quick.
I agree about the knives. But sadly, Jessica has died because that man who approached her was twice her size and because he was so jacked up on adrenaline, the stabbing only fueled his aggression. A single shot to the head would have saved Jessica's life but she was not allowed to have a gun.Ascendant606 wrote:So to get to the point, I don't beleive that people should own guns. now knives? yes. If Jessica had a knife and stabbed the man when he approached her none of the blood of innocents would have been spilled. Knives were not meant for slaughter, and I would feel safe knowing that I had a knife along with the rest of the population.
So then Ascendant606, or anyone for that matter, what is your valid reason why I should not be allowed to own an assault rifle?
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Re: Should People Be Allowed to Own Guns?
- Mike A.
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Re: Should People Be Allowed to Own Guns?
Numerous machine guns. Sniper rifle. Don't trust. A machine gun requires much less skill than a sniper rifle - only my opinion after using both, and in various calibers, following training by uncle Samuel.
My home protection - four (4) GSDs, 12 ga. with 000. I sleep quite well. Never been a fan of a pistol but am proficient in the use of one.
For a citizen to be kinda safe in their residence they would need a safe room and be able to get into it. The average time for available police to arrive following a 911 call is measured in minutes, not seconds. And sooner or later you have to leave your home.
Gun ownership does not lead to mayhem. Vodka doesn't lead to mayhem. But a nutcase with a snootful of vodka and behind the wheel of a vehicle... And a nutcase with a firearm...
If you look around you right now you'll see any number of instruments of mayhem. A ball point pen, a knife, a broken glass, a chair,...
No issue with background checks. A huge issue with magazine restrictions - 10 rnds, should be enough. Strawman gun purchases should lead directly to jail. Assault with any weapon should lead directly to jail.
Guns don't kill people... Cars don't kill people. Drinking doesn't kill people... Knives don't kill people... Etc.
As usual, people try to find a macro solution to a micro problem. Get rid of firearms and firearm deaths will go down. Get rid of cars and vehicle deaths will go down. Etc.
Should people be allowed to be mentally ill? Perhaps a saner starting point to discuss the original question would be to insert 'mentally ill' following 'should' and before 'people.' And when the solutions for that concern are being implemented, to revisit the question, if necessary.
I think I'll go down to the range and pattern a shotgun. Turkey hunting, ya know?
Hondo [played by John Wayne in the title role]
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Re: Should People Be Allowed to Own Guns?
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Re: Should People Be Allowed to Own Guns?
I find the lack of response to specific points to be indicative of the untenable position that the anti-guns/anti-freedoms people here are pushing. They're just regurgitating the same old parroted nonsense over and over while ignoring key questions and points.
As far as all of the statistics that are being thrown around, for every statistic you provide that supposedly "proves" that guns are directly related to the violence that they are associated with, I'll provide you with another statistic that "proves" just the opposite.
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Re: Should People Be Allowed to Own Guns?
Well produce it. If it betters the obvious facts that proportionally a hundred times more citizens get killed in the US compared to the UK by guns, I would love to see it.Guns kill. They encourage murder. They make killing easy.Assault rifles make it even easier otherwise what is their purpose? I want the freedom to know if I fall out with my neighbour who is suffering with a mental condition he can't put his finger on the trigger. My freedom would be threatened a darn sight more than his.Spiral Out wrote:You simply cannot prohibit someone from possessing something just because you are afraid of what they might do with it. That's utterly childish and lazy.
I find the lack of response to specific points to be indicative of the untenable position that the anti-guns/anti-freedoms people here are pushing. They're just regurgitating the same old parroted nonsense over and over while ignoring key questions and points.
As far as all of the statistics that are being thrown around, for every statistic you provide that supposedly "proves" that guns are directly related to the violence that they are associated with, I'll provide you with another statistic that "proves" just the opposite.
- Spiral Out
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Re: Should People Be Allowed to Own Guns?
Why have I not killed with my guns? Surely they are encouraging me to commit murder. They're making it so easy for me to kill. So then why am I not doing it? Why aren't my guns just taking it upon themselves to go out and commit these killings themselves since I won't do it? Guns kill. Isn't that right? What do they need me for?Xris wrote:Guns kill. They encourage murder. They make killing easy.
I could own 1,000 assault rifles and not a single one of them would be involved in any crime. Why is that?Xris wrote:Assault rifles make it even easier otherwise what is their purpose?
Could it be because I'm a good person and that I have a conscience and that I am not a killer? No, that certainly can't be it because it's the guns. The guns make it so easy. They're calling to me right at this moment to go out and kill someone. Is that correct, Xris? Is that what you believe? Perhaps it's better that you're over there, not here.
If your neighbor is that mentally ill then he will get you any way he can. But get this, you want the freedom to know you are safe? That's got to be a joke right? Who genuinely has that freedom? What planet are you on?Xris wrote:I want the freedom to know if I fall out with my neighbour who is suffering with a mental condition he can't put his finger on the trigger. My freedom would be threatened a darn sight more than his.
If guns are the problem then why is it that my guns are not doing their part to contribute to the problem? Are my guns special?
Statistically, the more guns one owns the less likely they are to be involved in a crime involving the use of a gun such as a drive-by shooting, robbery, homicide, domestic violence, etc. If guns are the problem then these people should be contributing to the problem exponentially. But they're not. The fact is that the vast majority of people using guns to commit crimes don't even own a gun. Statistically, the people who use guns to commit these crimes have procured those guns illegal means such as through theft or smuggling. They are not gun owners.
Guns are not the problem, especially not gun ownership. People are the problem. It's too easy to blame the tools of the violence rather than the source of the violence.
I'm sure these questions will be ignored yet again because nobody has a valid answer to them, but I'll ask them again:
Can anyone provide just one valid reason why I cannot own an assault rifle?
Do you fear the gun or the homicidal psychopath you're locked in a room with?
Would you hold to your anti-gun views and eschew use of that gun in that situation?
Hey, and don't forget about post #49, there are still points in that post that you have yet to address. Or have you capitulated?
- Mike A.
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Re: Should People Be Allowed to Own Guns?
The "gun culture 'I' so enjoy has caused the insecurity and the need for 'me'ou to have a gun..." What? A conclusion so casually tossed out.
A guy was on trial locally for busting a dinner plate and then trying to decapitate his wife with it, managing only to slit her throat - she survived. You, I suppose would point to that as a reason to ban a gun, I suppose. A weapon, is a weapon, is a weapon. Assault, is assault, is assault.
I possess firearms because I hunt. I hunt to put food on my table for my family. I use firearms and bows as my tools for the harvest. I used assault weapons when my role was to engage or repel an assault. I use firearms to hunt.
A gun culture... And just what is that? The culture of our hunting heritage? The culture of our national defense?
You cite Great Britain. Doesn't work for me so very OK. Maybe because of my Irish heritage... Who knows? I hold nothing English very dear, except for EPL futbol.
How is it that Switzerland and Israel are nations with firearms in most households but supposedly have few deaths by firearms [though in the case of Israel I suppose you have to qualify the stats a bit]? I have no answer, just find it an interesting bit of information.
Your training didn't mirror mine. But then there iare all kinds of training.
I'm sure that you are well aware that the mere racking of a 12 ga. pump in the dark of night is the sound of a real deterrent .
My vision of stuff is not offensive but defensive. You do your thing and I'll do mine. I had occasion to go next door to my neighbor to apologize for the noise my mutts were making. They weren't all that bad but my neighbors should not have to endure my mutts noise. Anyway, the neighbor emphasized how much she enjoyed the sound of the dogs. I asked her why. She replied, I know the dogs are always watching over me.
There are many ways of defending a home. A firearm should be the very last tool in the chest to be used. But if, in that very unlikely event, action is needed...
The right to own a firearm... The right... In its absence, the right to a free press, of assembly, of religion, of speech, of petition... All those rights would be unenforceable...
Philosophically, it would be wonderful if we could all just get along but that ain't gonna happen tomorrow morning. Realistically, idealistically, we live in a world with really evil people. In any case, the right to possess a firearm should not be the issue. But the room does possess any number of readily available weapons, and there ain't a gun in sight.
Xris. Have you not heard that the pen is mightier than the sword?
Hondo [played by John Wayne in the title role]
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Re: Should People Be Allowed to Own Guns?
- Spiral Out
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Re: Should People Be Allowed to Own Guns?
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Re: Should People Be Allowed to Own Guns?
You have no questions that are relevant to gun control. You simply want to argue why you should not be allowed to have a machine gun. Tell me why should I not be allowed to have an atomic bomb or a nuclear missile? Funny enough gun control ain't about you as an individual.What about your schizophrenic neighbour can he have a ballistic missile?Spiral Out wrote:Xris, if you cannot address my questions then we are done with our discussion. It's obvious you have no answers and no argument, only propagandized ********.
- wanabe
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Re: Should People Be Allowed to Own Guns?
The 'appeal to fear' of the anti-gun lobby is rooted in appealing to your sense of insecurity, and your fear of other people. Rational fear vs exploiting fear for a political agenda based on a false notion of the meaning of democratic freedom. Sorry I thought you were answering the title of this thread by saying guns should be banned by stating reasons why guns should be banned, my mistake.
People have demonized gun owners, it's the same argument styles on both sides. My point in saying this is that labeling arguments as something doesn't address them.
It's also a false sense of security to expect police and the government to solve our problems. "The number of deaths prevented by so-called 'good shooters' is far outweighed by the number of suicides, murders, and accidental deaths and injuries caused by high rates of gun ownership." I have never seen any source that has done those calculations. It's a catch 22 because if granny shoots a robber with her .22 and kills the guy it's called gun homicide, not self defense, even though granny doesn't go to jail because it was self defense. The stats are skewed for this reason.
Xris,
If it's so easy to Google these stats, provide them. It's not my burden to prove your argument true.
I want, these things because I want them. Who are you to say what Americans need? Taking away the right to own guns is the boogy man from the government taking away freedom. Next your going to tell us we need cameras every where so the government can keep us safe by watching our every move.
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