Is abortion murder?

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 9th, 2018, 6:38 pm

cooltodd109 wrote:
February 28th, 2007, 10:22 pm
Abortion is a very divisive issue. It pushes people to extreme and decisive viewpoints. I'm still on the fence.

What do you think about abortion? Why do you think that why?

Is abortion murder? Why or why not?
Murder is a legally defined term. Since abortion is legal is it ipso facto NOT murder.

As for the morality of abortion. The state has no right to enforce a woman to carry an unwanted foetus, but has a responsibility to take steps to minimise suffering of any living thing, even if unborn.
As the state fulfils the wishes of the public to protect animals be they pets or livestock from unnecessary pain and distress it ought to make abortion as timely as possible to reduce pain and distress to the pregnant woman AND the living things she carries.
At the moment abortion on demand is set at 24 weeks. It seems to me that there are good arguments to reduce that to 20 weeks, and more efforts ought to be taken to make the process as timely as possible by allowing medical staff to delay the process. If a Doctor feels unable to recommend an abortion they ought to be legally bound to refer the patient to another doctor.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 9th, 2018, 7:01 pm

Thinking critical wrote:
April 28th, 2018, 8:35 am
The problem is, murder can be de defined an classified by legal systems yet it is extremely hard to define at what stage an embryo can be called human?
I think the viability of the foetus is key here. Premature babies of 24 weeks have very high survival rates and leads me to think that the 24 week limit is too long, and ought to be reduced to 20 weeks.
There are a couple of interesting graphs on Wiki which show the recent change in termination period rates. The more recent graph for the UK shows that only a negligible amount are terminated after 20 weeks. SO I think the 20 week limit is achievable.

As for the legal question of determining what is 'human' is not a question. The law has no problem with when it establishes personhood; when it likes.

CIN
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by CIN » May 18th, 2018, 7:24 pm

I suggest that abortion is murder if it occurs after the moment at which the foetus first becomes conscious. Before that moment you have something that is potentially sentient but has in fact never ever been sentient, i.e. has never been anything but mindless matter. After that moment you have something that has at some time been sentient, i.e. has at some point had a mind (however rudimentary).

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Greta
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Greta » May 18th, 2018, 8:12 pm

CIN wrote:
May 18th, 2018, 7:24 pm
I suggest that abortion is murder if it occurs after the moment at which the foetus first becomes conscious. Before that moment you have something that is potentially sentient but has in fact never ever been sentient, i.e. has never been anything but mindless matter. After that moment you have something that has at some time been sentient, i.e. has at some point had a mind (however rudimentary).
I have sympathy with your view but the consciousness of even a born infant is far less complex and advanced than that of social food animals like pigs, cows, goats, sheep and chickens (the latter being far smarter than previously thought).

A values here take in a variety of intuitive influences - the one you mentioned being one. Another is that they are human, and we hold special views about humans. Then there is the matter of sensation - when does feeling come, and to what extent. So I would draw the line at the point beyond the initial development of the nervous system to the point where the nervous system provides an emotional response to discomfort like a mammal or reptile. I don't know how many weeks that would be - certainly the first trimester would seem okay.

When it comes to abortion, it's the health of the mother, the emotional health of the parents, and potential suffering of a fully human foetus that is of most concern. The death of some little fishlike entity in the first trimester is hardly a big deal in the greater scheme of things. For anyone who is pro-life then war, climate
change, inequality and the need for more women's education in developing cultures are the elephants in the room.

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LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by LuckyR » May 19th, 2018, 2:12 am

The attitude of the so called pro-life individuals towards contraception is the giveaway. If the issue was saving fetuses then those guys would be the number one proponents of birth control to make abortion unnecessary. Yet they aren't. No, it's really about fighting maternal autonomy, not saving babies.
"As usual... it depends."

Jan Sand
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Jan Sand » May 24th, 2018, 3:02 pm

The question of abortion and how it affects lives has many aspects and there is no easy solution. A fetus that cannot exist outside the womb is not, in my view, any different from any internal organ totally dependent upon its presence inside a body. It is not murder to surgically remove a finger or a kidney or any other organ, A fetus not completely developed is only a potential creature and every sperm pr unfertilized egg is equally a potential creature. Refusing to have sex between two humans, male and female, is also denying a potential human but this is not considered murder. Removing a womb because there is suspicion that it might generate illness is not considered mass murder because it might have permitted several children . If one tears up a lotto ticket before the draw it does not indicate one has lost a fortune, Potentials are not actualities and many things can intervene before a living being manages to gain separate existence.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 24th, 2018, 5:50 pm

Jan Sand wrote:
May 24th, 2018, 3:02 pm
A fetus that cannot exist outside the womb is not, in my view, any different from any internal organ
But this is exactly the bone of contention since foetuses can in fact live outside the womb that are younger than the cut off date of legal abortion, and it seems likely that the survivability is being down dated as technology progresses.
Would this mean that a woman unwilling to carry a foetus beyond 22 weeks have to allow the state to provide the means to carry it to personhood?

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Jan Sand » May 24th, 2018, 6:19 pm

I find it most strange that the state is so fascinated by partly developed humans ans cannot care enough for born children to see that they are properly fed and schooled and integrated into a society and is more willing to spend those necessary funds for monstrous killing machines than the fundamental needs of its citizens. If society cares so much for its citizens then it must pay to see they have a decent life. It's the richest country in the world and its default on citizen care is revolting.

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Dachshund » May 25th, 2018, 7:05 am

LuckyR wrote:
May 19th, 2018, 2:12 am
The attitude of the so called pro-life individuals towards contraception is the giveaway. If the issue was saving fetuses then those guys would be the number one proponents of birth control to make abortion unnecessary. Yet they aren't. No, it's really about fighting maternal autonomy, not saving babies.
Tell me LuckyR, are you familiar with the basic theoretical tenets of The Natural Law ( the notion of The Natural MORAL Law,I mean) as it was expounded by ancient philosophers like Cicero,Seneca and the Roman jurisconsults, for example, and as it was utilised in the context English Common Law jurisprudence?

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Jan Sand
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Jan Sand » May 25th, 2018, 7:33 am

One must be extremely careful about considering the attitudes of ancient cultures to those current. People today think quite differently about slavery and war and the rights of women and even creatures other than human. Natural is a word of quite strange implications. It is quite natural that Ebola destroys people but in my opinions concerning the natural rights of Ebola to do so might be considered quite unnatural.

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Dachshund » May 25th, 2018, 7:54 am

Jan, The Natural Law is a moral theory. It had its origins in the writing of ancients like Aristotle and Cicero but is still very much alive today in 2018. You are, I think, conflating it with the notion of human rights like those set down those in modern era legal documents like the United Nations Universal of Human Rights which are largely grounded on the rationalist ethical theories of Enlightenment philosophers like Immanual Kant.

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Jan Sand
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Jan Sand » May 25th, 2018, 8:02 am

Dachshund wrote:
May 25th, 2018, 7:54 am
Jan, The Natural Law is a moral theory. It had its origins in the writing of ancients like Aristotle and Cicero but is still very much alive today in 2018. You are, I think, conflating it with the notion of human rights like those set down those in modern era legal documents like the United Nations Universal of Human Rights which are largely grounded on the rationalist ethical theories of Enlightenment philosophers like Immanual Kant.

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Dachshund
OK. How is it alive today since you indicate it is not incorporated in our current legal and philosophical understandings?

Dachshund
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Dachshund » May 25th, 2018, 8:47 am

Briefly, Jan, The Natural (moral) Law holds that all rational human beings have a a capacity to correctly discern what is the right (good) thing to do and what is the wrong (bad) things to do in any moral situation with which they are confronted. The thesis of The Natural Law holds that in any moral situation there is , in fact, always A right thing and A wrong thing to do. Moreover, moral values and duties that are right exist as real objective things that have been determined and ordained a supernatural/transcendent Divine entity. In the case the Christianity, for example, a Christian believes that the Divine Commandments are objective and absolute truths which where DETERMINED and then revealed to mankind by the Biblical God in Scripture, for instance. But the theory of The Natural Law argues that even if one has never read the Bible or been exposed to any Christian moral teachings, or any of the moral teachings of any other religion or culture, provided one is an adult of sound mind, knowledge of what is truly right and what is truly wrong is discernable by any man or woman simply through their inherent ability to reason ( to engage in rational reflection) . For instance, The Natural Law maintains that men and women know for a fact that it is always wrong to lie, to steal, to murder, to break promises , for example, and that if we look back at human history over the millenia it is clear that this is the case. The theory of The Natural (moral) Law hold this is so, NOT because men and women have read this in any sacred religious text or been instructed so by any human expert/authority in the field of morality, like, say, a famed philosopher of ethics, but because ( again, to cite a Biblical reference, this time, St Paul) the truth of what is right and what is wrong exists ( and it exists as an objective, absolute reality) that has been "inscribed on the hearts" of ALL men and women by their Divine Creator.

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Dachshund

Dachshund
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Dachshund » May 25th, 2018, 8:52 am

NB; When I said men and women always know that it is wrong to lie, steal, break promises, etc I should have said that they always know DEEP DOWN in their hearts that this is so.

Jan Sand
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Jan Sand » May 25th, 2018, 9:12 am

Dachshund wrote:
May 25th, 2018, 8:52 am
NB; When I said men and women always know that it is wrong to lie, steal, break promises, etc I should have said that they always know DEEP DOWN in their hearts that this is so.
That's a wonderful fantasy you've settled into and it seems quite well to agree with Kant's ideas but it has absolutely nothing to do with either current nor historical reality. If lying were so despicable why is it the most useful tool in all social activity, especially in commerce, politics and religion and even the most personal relationships? Camouflage is the form of lying that has kept huge numbers of living things alive and that is most natural. Linguistic camouflage is very popular with humans and sports is full of deceptive actions. It seems you have much to acknowledge.

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