Is abortion murder?

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Misty
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Misty » July 31st, 2013, 7:11 am

Londoner wrote:Indeed? Therefore we shouldn't burn or bury dead people - because we would not do those things to a live human? I think you are something of an extremist in the abortion debate! A 'right to life' isn't usually extended to the dead! Any point before it has developed those functions that we associate with being a live human. Just as I consider cremation to be OK for people who have ceased to perform those functions that we associate with being a live human.

I willingly accept that the exact point is open to debate, but I think it is clear that a single undifferentiated cell (the fertilised egg) is not yet a live human, because it does not have the same attributes as live humans.
Good Morning Londoner,

Uh, how does a growing live embryo equate with a dead human? Disposing of dead humans is of course necessary and cremation is probably the most sanitary. I would not say we are burning garbage when it is a dead human. There should be care in disposing of humans. How did you get to a 'right to life' issue being extended to the dead? I am far from an extremist in the abortion debate and if you have read my posts you would know that. I do not believe humans should adopt an abortion on demand as a birth control method.

Many children born do not have the so called attributes most humans have, like born without a face, all kinds of disabilities which certainly lack normal human "attributes" but we don't kill them.

My debate earlier was about a sperm or egg ALONE is designed to die UNLESS a sperm and egg UNITE which causes continued growth of human tissue. Each UNION is unique. I was saying it is better to avoid a union than to abort.

Embryos are 10-12 weeks gestation, heart beats and it has a face, arms, legs etc., definitely a person. Abortions on healthy embryos AND fetuses are done every day. I held a 20 week fetus, it's mother held him a few minutes while still alive and she heard and saw him take a final breath then died. His little feet and hands were still webbed, he had a beautiful face.

I am quite aware there are human life circumstances where abortion is necessary. But one cannot classify a live growing human embryo with a dead human.

When human life is carelessly devalued at one stage of life it is easier to carry it to another level.

Misty
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Londoner » July 31st, 2013, 10:04 am

Misty
Uh, how does a growing live embryo equate with a dead human?
Because neither exhibit the range of faculties we associate with being a live human, one because they have not yet developed and the other because they have ceased. That one might acquire those faculties in the future, and the other used to have them, is not relevent to what they are now.
Many children born do not have the so called attributes most humans have, like born without a face, all kinds of disabilities which certainly lack normal human "attributes" but we don't kill them.
But if they lacked sufficently important human attributes, for example if they were born without a brain, then I think we would kill them, or at least not think we had a duty to keep them alive.

For that matter, very sick people may come to the conclusion that they no longer want to live, for exactly the same reason - that their sickness means they can no longer function as humans. The fact that some bodily functions continue to operate is not enough.

Of course, you are free to disagree with that view, but you cannot claim society is being inconsistent by not giving undeveloped or very damaged humans the same status as developed ones.
Embryos are 10-12 weeks gestation, heart beats and it has a face, arms, legs etc., definitely a person. Abortions on healthy embryos AND fetuses are done every day. I held a 20 week fetus, it's mother held him a few minutes while still alive and she heard and saw him take a final breath then died. His little feet and hands were still webbed, he had a beautiful face.
But now you are making the same argument as me. That abortions are wrong because the embryo at 20 weeks has most of the attributes of a developed human. As I say, I'm quite willing to accept you may be right about that, but if you use this argument then I don't see how it can also be applied to the single cell of a fertilized egg, because that doesn't resemble a human at all.

I hope you understand that I'm not unsympathetic to your feelings on this issue; I just don't think the argument that treats all abortion as murder, because it refuses to differentiate between a fertilised egg and a developed human, works.

I wonder if it isn't a mistake for those opposed to abortion to try to construct cold logical/philosophical arguments to prove their case. I think they do better when they appeal to our common emotions, as you have done above.

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Spiral Out » July 31st, 2013, 12:26 pm

Misty wrote:My debate earlier was about a sperm or egg ALONE is designed to die UNLESS a sperm and egg UNITE which causes continued growth of human tissue. Each UNION is unique. I was saying it is better to avoid a union than to abort.
Agreed. So we have established that you believe the potential for life begins with the union of sperm and egg. That's reasonable enough.
Misty wrote:Human life from conception until death is moment by moment actuality and existence.
You've skipped an important point when the potential for life becomes actualized life. So somewhere between the union of sperm and egg and the birth of the Human there is a point where the potential becomes actual.

What is that specific point?
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Misty » July 31st, 2013, 3:06 pm

Londoner wrote:MistyI hope you understand that I'm not unsympathetic to your feelings on this issue; I just don't think the argument that treats all abortion as murder, because it refuses to differentiate between a fertilised egg and a developed human, works.

I wonder if it isn't a mistake for those opposed to abortion to try to construct cold logical/philosophical arguments to prove their case. I think they do better when they appeal to our common emotions, as you have done above.
Thank you Londoner,

Murder: 1) killing deliberately 2)illegally 3)brutally 4) destroy 5) ruin or end something

I agree that the issues are too many and some too complex to render all abortions as punishable crime. It is still killing regardless of what we call it.

Scenario: A significant female that you love is 2 1/2 months pregnant. A stranger approaches her than hard punches her in the abdomen and she miscarries her very wanted child. Do you think the stranger should be prosecuted for murder? I bet the mother to be would say he killed my child.

Children born without a brain (but have brain stem) can live for years...however not like a normal child by any stretch of the imagination. One can google: born without a brain, also: born without a face. This little girl had the most loving parents I ever saw. She is now a few years old.

Normally born humans also have accidents and strokes and other debilitating conditions that change their lives completely and as of now society does not kill them.

I agree there are no easy answers, and I would not want anyone making my decisions but as a society we do need strong guidelines and much more education.

I also think men need to take more responsibility for the children they sire out of wedlock. Maybe a better birth control than condoms and the pills we have today. I do think the morning after pill is the best so far for women.

Misty

-- Updated Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:21 pm to add the following --
Spiral Out wrote:You've skipped an important point when the potential for life becomes actualized life. So somewhere between the union of sperm and egg and the birth of the Human there is a point where the potential becomes actual.

What is that specific point?

Hi Spiral,

I know you want me to say when a baby is born it goes from potential to actualized life.

But, I personally believe, it is a human baby from conception on. If this were not true there would not be any medical effort to save any pregnancy at any age for any reason.

Misty
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Spiral Out » July 31st, 2013, 4:44 pm

Misty wrote:I know you want me to say when a baby is born it goes from potential to actualized life.
I don't want you to say anything in particular and I wasn't expecting you to say that it's when the baby is born that its life is actualized. The point is there is no specific moment when a potential life is actualized. This is because the potential for life goes further back beyond the sperm and the egg, and the actualization of that potential cannot be determined. There is no determining when the potential for life emerges and then when it is actualized. This is why this debate shall go on endlessly and this issue shall never be resolved.
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Thought_2000 » August 1st, 2013, 12:58 pm

Misty wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Thank you Londoner,

Murder: 1) killing deliberately 2)illegally 3)brutally 4) destroy 5) ruin or end something

I agree that the issues are too many and some too complex to render all abortions as punishable crime. It is still killing regardless of what we call it.

Scenario: A significant female that you love is 2 1/2 months pregnant. A stranger approaches her than hard punches her in the abdomen and she miscarries her very wanted child. Do you think the stranger should be prosecuted for murder? I bet the mother to be would say he killed my child.

Children born without a brain (but have brain stem) can live for years...however not like a normal child by any stretch of the imagination. One can google: born without a brain, also: born without a face. This little girl had the most loving parents I ever saw. She is now a few years old.

Normally born humans also have accidents and strokes and other debilitating conditions that change their lives completely and as of now society does not kill them.

I agree there are no easy answers, and I would not want anyone making my decisions but as a society we do need strong guidelines and much more education.

I also think men need to take more responsibility for the children they sire out of wedlock. Maybe a better birth control than condoms and the pills we have today. I do think the morning after pill is the best so far for women.

Misty

-- Updated Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:21 pm to add the following --


(Nested quote removed.)



Hi Spiral,

I know you want me to say when a baby is born it goes from potential to actualized life.

But, I personally believe, it is a human baby from conception on. If this were not true there would not be any medical effort to save any pregnancy at any age for any reason.

Misty
Very touchy subject indeed yet Londoner is correct;

Prior to conception, our creator breathes life to the new embryo thus life begins at conception. The embryo will become aware and begin to think at first breath yet the embryo is very alive. It clings to the womb for nourishment and the endless vertical love that has formed.The embryo is at its most vulnerable condition and the womb is it's safe haven. If a choice is made to abort the pregnancy, the new life will resist with all it's might by clinging to the womb for protection. Yet all of the struggle the embryo will not over come the abortion method, but the life will continue.

I apologize for this graphic portrait.

With this being said, abortion is a killing of life to an embryo that's only purpose is to live.t effects countless lives of the past and the future. The collateral damage of past and future lives is un-measurable.

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Misty » August 1st, 2013, 7:06 pm

[quote="Thought_2000"] Yet all of the struggle the embryo will not over come the abortion method, but the life will continue.


I have a question. What do you mean by, If life is aborted the life will continue?
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Thought_2000 » August 1st, 2013, 7:13 pm

Misty wrote: (Nested quote removed.)
This I feel is the the most painful part of abortion for the mother. Once life is given to the embryo, the physical body can be extinguished but the life that was created will continue as in it's future. It will never live in the now, but remembered and go directly to it's afterlife, the future. Ever heard the phase God loves all the children? This does include the unborn and first breath. I have touched lightly with mothers that choose abortion yet confess they are haunted by the memory of the abortion. One girl told me there is not a night that goes by that she doesn't think of it. In a spiritual way, this haunting of the life created is still searching for the comfort of the mothers womb. Keep in mind that a life continues after it's last breath and enters it's future and now a part of those that remember it's history. It's future is with the creator.

Makes sense?

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Misty » August 1st, 2013, 8:01 pm

Yes it does make some sense.

Not all aborted children and not all children born who die are remembered by anyone on earth. But I do believe when one dies and returns to dust, the spirit/breath of life goes back to creator God. (includes all conceived)

Ecclesiastes 12;7 - "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Spirit is the breath of life)

Ecclesiastes 3:20 - " All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." (all humans and all animal life)
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Aggro Richman » August 1st, 2013, 8:10 pm

Misty wrote:Yes it does make some sense.

Not all aborted children and not all children born who die are remembered by anyone on earth. But I do believe when one dies and returns to dust, the spirit/breath of life goes back to creator God. (includes all conceived)

Ecclesiastes 12;7 - "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Spirit is the breath of life)

Ecclesiastes 3:20 - " All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." (all humans and all animal life)
...You seriously quoting the Bible, Misty?

I'll do the same, then:
Deuteronomy 17 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
Go. Go out and kill non-believers, Misty. Come on. You know you wouldn't do any of the above, even if you were in Israel.

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Misty » August 1st, 2013, 8:26 pm

Aggro Richman wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


...You seriously quoting the Bible, Misty?

I'll do the same, then:


(Nested quote removed.)


Go. Go out and kill non-believers, Misty. Come on. You know you wouldn't do any of the above, even if you were in Israel.
Hello Aggro Richman,

I do quote the bible if it is uplifting. I do not believe all bible literature is good. I am a theist but not a person who preaches hate. There are murderers among believers and non believers. There are godly people among both believers and non believers. I like hope, and love.

I have another bible quote on the topic of "Can God do anything? post #18 - check it out.
Last edited by Misty on August 1st, 2013, 10:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Thinking critical » August 1st, 2013, 9:00 pm

Thought_2000 wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


This I feel is the the most painful part of abortion for the mother. Once life is given to the embryo, the physical body can be extinguished but the life that was created will continue as in it's future. It will never live in the now, but remembered and go directly to it's afterlife, the future. Ever heard the phase God loves all the children? This does include the unborn and first breath. I have touched lightly with mothers that choose abortion yet confess they are haunted by the memory of the abortion. One girl told me there is not a night that goes by that she doesn't think of it. In a spiritual way, this haunting of the life created is still searching for the comfort of the mothers womb. Keep in mind that a life continues after it's last breath and enters it's future and now a part of those that remember it's history. It's future is with the creator.

Makes sense?
Un-justifiable mysticism is not a valid argument against anything, especially a subject like abortion. Once the embryo is dead, it's life no longer exists. The mother may have formed some sort of ontological ideology of what the blood clot of cells and membrane represented, and may chose to hold onto that memory, that's fine. But to state that some metaphysical entity or life form that supposedly existed inside the embryo will carry on living, is just an unsubstantiated belief. These beliefs can not be used as an argument against abortion as they have no objective meaning.
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Thought_2000 » August 1st, 2013, 10:07 pm

Thinking critical wrote: (Nested quote removed.)



Un-justifiable mysticism is not a valid argument against anything, especially a subject like abortion. Once the embryo is dead, it's life no longer exists. The mother may have formed some sort of ontological ideology of what the blood clot of cells and membrane represented, and may chose to hold onto that memory, that's fine. But to state that some metaphysical entity or life form that supposedly existed inside the embryo will carry on living, is just an unsubstantiated belief. These beliefs can not be used as an argument against abortion as they have no objective meaning.
A question to thinking critical with less words;

Who do you believe is the sole creator of life?

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Thinking critical » August 1st, 2013, 10:46 pm

Thought_2000 wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


A question to thinking critical with less words;

Who do you believe is the sole creator of life?
Why does there have to be a Who? What makes you think that there is a sole creator of life? Life emerges via the processes of the natural Universe.
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Thought_2000 » August 2nd, 2013, 6:13 am

Thinking critical wrote: (Nested quote removed.)
Why does there have to be a Who? What makes you think that there is a sole creator of life? Life emerges via the processes of the natural Universe.[/quot

Genesis 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."

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