Is abortion murder?

Have philosophical discussions about politics, law, and government.
Featured Article: Definition of Freedom - What Freedom Means to Me
Post Reply
User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

cooltodd109 wrote: February 28th, 2007, 10:22 pm Abortion is a very divisive issue. It pushes people to extreme and decisive viewpoints. I'm still on the fence.

What do you think about abortion? Why do you think that why?

Is abortion murder? Why or why not?
Murder is a legally defined term. Since abortion is legal is it ipso facto NOT murder.

As for the morality of abortion. The state has no right to enforce a woman to carry an unwanted foetus, but has a responsibility to take steps to minimise suffering of any living thing, even if unborn.
As the state fulfils the wishes of the public to protect animals be they pets or livestock from unnecessary pain and distress it ought to make abortion as timely as possible to reduce pain and distress to the pregnant woman AND the living things she carries.
At the moment abortion on demand is set at 24 weeks. It seems to me that there are good arguments to reduce that to 20 weeks, and more efforts ought to be taken to make the process as timely as possible by allowing medical staff to delay the process. If a Doctor feels unable to recommend an abortion they ought to be legally bound to refer the patient to another doctor.
User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Thinking critical wrote: April 28th, 2018, 8:35 am The problem is, murder can be de defined an classified by legal systems yet it is extremely hard to define at what stage an embryo can be called human?
I think the viability of the foetus is key here. Premature babies of 24 weeks have very high survival rates and leads me to think that the 24 week limit is too long, and ought to be reduced to 20 weeks.
There are a couple of interesting graphs on Wiki which show the recent change in termination period rates. The more recent graph for the UK shows that only a negligible amount are terminated after 20 weeks. SO I think the 20 week limit is achievable.

As for the legal question of determining what is 'human' is not a question. The law has no problem with when it establishes personhood; when it likes.
CIN
Posts: 284
Joined: November 6th, 2016, 10:33 am

Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by CIN »

I suggest that abortion is murder if it occurs after the moment at which the foetus first becomes conscious. Before that moment you have something that is potentially sentient but has in fact never ever been sentient, i.e. has never been anything but mindless matter. After that moment you have something that has at some time been sentient, i.e. has at some point had a mind (however rudimentary).
Philosophy is a waste of time. But then, so is most of life.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Sy Borg »

CIN wrote: May 18th, 2018, 7:24 pm I suggest that abortion is murder if it occurs after the moment at which the foetus first becomes conscious. Before that moment you have something that is potentially sentient but has in fact never ever been sentient, i.e. has never been anything but mindless matter. After that moment you have something that has at some time been sentient, i.e. has at some point had a mind (however rudimentary).
I have sympathy with your view but the consciousness of even a born infant is far less complex and advanced than that of social food animals like pigs, cows, goats, sheep and chickens (the latter being far smarter than previously thought).

A values here take in a variety of intuitive influences - the one you mentioned being one. Another is that they are human, and we hold special views about humans. Then there is the matter of sensation - when does feeling come, and to what extent. So I would draw the line at the point beyond the initial development of the nervous system to the point where the nervous system provides an emotional response to discomfort like a mammal or reptile. I don't know how many weeks that would be - certainly the first trimester would seem okay.

When it comes to abortion, it's the health of the mother, the emotional health of the parents, and potential suffering of a fully human foetus that is of most concern. The death of some little fishlike entity in the first trimester is hardly a big deal in the greater scheme of things. For anyone who is pro-life then war, climate
change, inequality and the need for more women's education in developing cultures are the elephants in the room.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by LuckyR »

The attitude of the so called pro-life individuals towards contraception is the giveaway. If the issue was saving fetuses then those guys would be the number one proponents of birth control to make abortion unnecessary. Yet they aren't. No, it's really about fighting maternal autonomy, not saving babies.
"As usual... it depends."
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Jan Sand »

The question of abortion and how it affects lives has many aspects and there is no easy solution. A fetus that cannot exist outside the womb is not, in my view, any different from any internal organ totally dependent upon its presence inside a body. It is not murder to surgically remove a finger or a kidney or any other organ, A fetus not completely developed is only a potential creature and every sperm pr unfertilized egg is equally a potential creature. Refusing to have sex between two humans, male and female, is also denying a potential human but this is not considered murder. Removing a womb because there is suspicion that it might generate illness is not considered mass murder because it might have permitted several children . If one tears up a lotto ticket before the draw it does not indicate one has lost a fortune, Potentials are not actualities and many things can intervene before a living being manages to gain separate existence.
User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 1122
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by ThomasHobbes »

Jan Sand wrote: May 24th, 2018, 3:02 pm A fetus that cannot exist outside the womb is not, in my view, any different from any internal organ
But this is exactly the bone of contention since foetuses can in fact live outside the womb that are younger than the cut off date of legal abortion, and it seems likely that the survivability is being down dated as technology progresses.
Would this mean that a woman unwilling to carry a foetus beyond 22 weeks have to allow the state to provide the means to carry it to personhood?
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Jan Sand »

I find it most strange that the state is so fascinated by partly developed humans ans cannot care enough for born children to see that they are properly fed and schooled and integrated into a society and is more willing to spend those necessary funds for monstrous killing machines than the fundamental needs of its citizens. If society cares so much for its citizens then it must pay to see they have a decent life. It's the richest country in the world and its default on citizen care is revolting.
Dachshund
Posts: 513
Joined: October 11th, 2017, 5:30 pm

Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Dachshund »

LuckyR wrote: May 19th, 2018, 2:12 am The attitude of the so called pro-life individuals towards contraception is the giveaway. If the issue was saving fetuses then those guys would be the number one proponents of birth control to make abortion unnecessary. Yet they aren't. No, it's really about fighting maternal autonomy, not saving babies.
Tell me LuckyR, are you familiar with the basic theoretical tenets of The Natural Law ( the notion of The Natural MORAL Law,I mean) as it was expounded by ancient philosophers like Cicero,Seneca and the Roman jurisconsults, for example, and as it was utilised in the context English Common Law jurisprudence?

Regards


Dachshund
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Jan Sand »

One must be extremely careful about considering the attitudes of ancient cultures to those current. People today think quite differently about slavery and war and the rights of women and even creatures other than human. Natural is a word of quite strange implications. It is quite natural that Ebola destroys people but in my opinions concerning the natural rights of Ebola to do so might be considered quite unnatural.
Dachshund
Posts: 513
Joined: October 11th, 2017, 5:30 pm

Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Dachshund »

Jan, The Natural Law is a moral theory. It had its origins in the writing of ancients like Aristotle and Cicero but is still very much alive today in 2018. You are, I think, conflating it with the notion of human rights like those set down those in modern era legal documents like the United Nations Universal of Human Rights which are largely grounded on the rationalist ethical theories of Enlightenment philosophers like Immanual Kant.

Regards

Dachshund
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Jan Sand »

Dachshund wrote: May 25th, 2018, 7:54 am Jan, The Natural Law is a moral theory. It had its origins in the writing of ancients like Aristotle and Cicero but is still very much alive today in 2018. You are, I think, conflating it with the notion of human rights like those set down those in modern era legal documents like the United Nations Universal of Human Rights which are largely grounded on the rationalist ethical theories of Enlightenment philosophers like Immanual Kant.

Regards

Dachshund
OK. How is it alive today since you indicate it is not incorporated in our current legal and philosophical understandings?
Dachshund
Posts: 513
Joined: October 11th, 2017, 5:30 pm

Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Dachshund »

Briefly, Jan, The Natural (moral) Law holds that all rational human beings have a a capacity to correctly discern what is the right (good) thing to do and what is the wrong (bad) things to do in any moral situation with which they are confronted. The thesis of The Natural Law holds that in any moral situation there is , in fact, always A right thing and A wrong thing to do. Moreover, moral values and duties that are right exist as real objective things that have been determined and ordained a supernatural/transcendent Divine entity. In the case the Christianity, for example, a Christian believes that the Divine Commandments are objective and absolute truths which where DETERMINED and then revealed to mankind by the Biblical God in Scripture, for instance. But the theory of The Natural Law argues that even if one has never read the Bible or been exposed to any Christian moral teachings, or any of the moral teachings of any other religion or culture, provided one is an adult of sound mind, knowledge of what is truly right and what is truly wrong is discernable by any man or woman simply through their inherent ability to reason ( to engage in rational reflection) . For instance, The Natural Law maintains that men and women know for a fact that it is always wrong to lie, to steal, to murder, to break promises , for example, and that if we look back at human history over the millenia it is clear that this is the case. The theory of The Natural (moral) Law hold this is so, NOT because men and women have read this in any sacred religious text or been instructed so by any human expert/authority in the field of morality, like, say, a famed philosopher of ethics, but because ( again, to cite a Biblical reference, this time, St Paul) the truth of what is right and what is wrong exists ( and it exists as an objective, absolute reality) that has been "inscribed on the hearts" of ALL men and women by their Divine Creator.

Regards

Dachshund
Dachshund
Posts: 513
Joined: October 11th, 2017, 5:30 pm

Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Dachshund »

NB; When I said men and women always know that it is wrong to lie, steal, break promises, etc I should have said that they always know DEEP DOWN in their hearts that this is so.
Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Jan Sand »

Dachshund wrote: May 25th, 2018, 8:52 am NB; When I said men and women always know that it is wrong to lie, steal, break promises, etc I should have said that they always know DEEP DOWN in their hearts that this is so.
That's a wonderful fantasy you've settled into and it seems quite well to agree with Kant's ideas but it has absolutely nothing to do with either current nor historical reality. If lying were so despicable why is it the most useful tool in all social activity, especially in commerce, politics and religion and even the most personal relationships? Camouflage is the form of lying that has kept huge numbers of living things alive and that is most natural. Linguistic camouflage is very popular with humans and sports is full of deceptive actions. It seems you have much to acknowledge.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Politics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021