Is abortion murder?

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Jan Sand
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Jan Sand » May 28th, 2018, 5:49 am

And after a couple of centuries of the enlightenment what have we got? The entire world covered with more people than it can support with a decent life. Millions barely able to get enough to eat and many dying of famines. And almost no help for the huge numbers trying to flee the war zones to find a place to live. A weather system where major cities with not enough water to permit its inhabitants to drink or raise crops. The prospect of the arctic and antarctic ice diluting and raising the seas to submerge much of the inhabitants living in coastal cities and the prospect of world temperatures making the tropic zones uninhabitable. The sea life being so completely over exploited that there are no larger fish anymore to reproduce. Huge portions of the corals dead and dying. Dead spots in major ocean areas where there is not enough oxygen in the oceans for life to exist. Well over 50% of the insects dying off which are sorely needed for crops to produce and wild life to find sustenance. And whatever wildlife that remains is disappearing quickly. Dry forests exploding in fires and much of the heavily forested areas that absorb CO2 and release oxygen disappearing. And huge stocks of nuclear weapons wherein even a few of the thousands ready to be used can easily destroy all life on the planet. And brutal idiots in control who have already butchered millions of people eager to destroy millions more. What could be more enlightened than that?

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Greta
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Greta » May 28th, 2018, 7:39 am

Progress, technology, humanism, leftism, atheism, multiculturalism are all nominated as culprits as natural and social environments struggle under the strain of too many human beings.

Amazing what some people blame on for problems caused by overpopulation - which is in no small part due to religious patriarchy.

Lucky, as is often the case, more or less spot on.

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Jan Sand » May 28th, 2018, 7:46 am

Also, if you have no smartphone ,or even a TV, the initial stage of making more people can be entertaining.

Dachshund
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Dachshund » May 29th, 2018, 3:02 am

Greta wrote:
May 28th, 2018, 7:39 am
Lucky, as is often the case, more or less spot on.
But Lucky never really lays his political cards on the table does he, Greta. He just tosses out trite, cutsie-pie, one or two liners like...
LuckyR wrote:
May 28th, 2018, 3:01 am
Are you familiar with the trend towards improvement in essentially every field over time as pertains to issues associated with physical or intellectual input?
I don't know why you keep "sucking up" to him ?

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LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by LuckyR » May 29th, 2018, 4:12 am

Dachshund wrote:
May 29th, 2018, 3:02 am
Greta wrote:
May 28th, 2018, 7:39 am
Lucky, as is often the case, more or less spot on.
But Lucky never really lays his political cards on the table does he, Greta. He just tosses out trite, cutsie-pie, one or two liners like...
LuckyR wrote:
May 28th, 2018, 3:01 am
Are you familiar with the trend towards improvement in essentially every field over time as pertains to issues associated with physical or intellectual input?
I don't know why you keep "sucking up" to him ?
Hhmmmm... why would I promote my political preferences on a philosophy forum? Why would anyone? As to my leaning towards brevity, it is my experience that most overestimate their ability to change minds through the recitation of factoids, especially when packaged in a lecturey tone. You obviously must have had a very different experience, good luck to you in winning friends and influencing people.

Sounds like you find the Roman period to be superior to the 1700s. That's nice. Do you consider the Roman period to be the highpoint of human thought? If so, I disagree, but what that has to do with ignoring contraception (the issue I actually spoke about, and that you quoted) escapes me.
"As usual... it depends."

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Greta
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Greta » May 29th, 2018, 4:21 am

Dachshund wrote:
May 29th, 2018, 3:02 am
Greta wrote:
May 28th, 2018, 7:39 am
Lucky, as is often the case, more or less spot on.
But Lucky never really lays his political cards on the table does he, Greta. He just tosses out trite, cutsie-pie, one or two liners like...
LuckyR wrote:
May 28th, 2018, 3:01 am
Are you familiar with the trend towards improvement in essentially every field over time as pertains to issues associated with physical or intellectual input?
I don't know why you keep "sucking up" to him ?
Now now, don't be jealous, Johnny me laddio. Lucky was spot on, though. Steven Pinker made the same point some years ago, and he had some compelling statistics to back it up.

Thing is, in order to move forwards you must give up some of your old self - otherwise you just remain your old self, yes?

Think of the qualities you had as a child that you lost as an adult. It's a shame, but there are always losses with any kind of change or development. Since change is inevitable, better to guide the change as much as possible than ignore it and go through with it in an uncontrolled way. Either way, once the dust settles, the replacements have so far always been much more complex, interesting and aware than the superseded and that may well continue to be the case for some time yet.

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LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by LuckyR » May 29th, 2018, 4:24 am

Jan Sand wrote:
May 28th, 2018, 5:49 am
And after a couple of centuries of the enlightenment what have we got? The entire world covered with more people than it can support with a decent life. Millions barely able to get enough to eat and many dying of famines. And almost no help for the huge numbers trying to flee the war zones to find a place to live. A weather system where major cities with not enough water to permit its inhabitants to drink or raise crops. The prospect of the arctic and antarctic ice diluting and raising the seas to submerge much of the inhabitants living in coastal cities and the prospect of world temperatures making the tropic zones uninhabitable. The sea life being so completely over exploited that there are no larger fish anymore to reproduce. Huge portions of the corals dead and dying. Dead spots in major ocean areas where there is not enough oxygen in the oceans for life to exist. Well over 50% of the insects dying off which are sorely needed for crops to produce and wild life to find sustenance. And whatever wildlife that remains is disappearing quickly. Dry forests exploding in fires and much of the heavily forested areas that absorb CO2 and release oxygen disappearing. And huge stocks of nuclear weapons wherein even a few of the thousands ready to be used can easily destroy all life on the planet. And brutal idiots in control who have already butchered millions of people eager to destroy millions more. What could be more enlightened than that?
Well actually the enlightenment barely lasted one century, and has been over for about two and a half, so blaming global warming on it is quite a reach. In your preferred alternative universe where the enlightenment never happened, what is your guess as to how 2018 would look?
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Jan Sand » May 29th, 2018, 5:19 am

The enlightenment is defined as " a movement of the 18th century that stressed the belief that science and logic give people more knowledge and understanding than tradition and religion " I am very surprised that science and logic is now considered finished although I agree that the current political leaders, especially in the USA seem more out of Lewis Carroll than in line with science and logic. Nevertheless to imply that current technology and its potentials have nothing to do with the progress towards defeating life on this planet may be somewhat lacking in awareness.

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 29th, 2018, 6:00 am

LuckyR wrote:
May 29th, 2018, 4:24 am
Well actually the enlightenment barely lasted one century, and has been over for about two and a half, so blaming global warming on it is quite a reach. In your preferred alternative universe where the enlightenment never happened, what is your guess as to how 2018 would look?
One century?? This is an historical absurdity? Exactly one century?
Well not according to Johanthan Isreal, and others who keep extending it as their pet definitions change.
So have it around 1492 - 1812.

But the amazing thing about The Enlightenment is that none of the key participants were aware that such a thing existed.
Take David Hume the heart of the Scottish Enlightenment, never used the word "enlightenment" once.
Kant's essay is oft quoted as a key document of "The Enlightenment" but he to never used the word in that way, but without the definite article. Aufklarung does not mean The Enlightenment in a historical sense in the context of document which was all about "OBEYING" your prince.

The Enlightenment was invented as an historical period in the 1930s and means different thinks to different people.
Originally it was anti-religion even atheistic as it marks the time of the fall of the power of the church, and the advent of serious skepticism. But now there is a "Christian Enlightenment", which is as absurd as it gets.

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by LuckyR » May 30th, 2018, 1:26 am

Jan Sand wrote:
May 29th, 2018, 5:19 am
The enlightenment is defined as " a movement of the 18th century that stressed the belief that science and logic give people more knowledge and understanding than tradition and religion " I am very surprised that science and logic is now considered finished although I agree that the current political leaders, especially in the USA seem more out of Lewis Carroll than in line with science and logic. Nevertheless to imply that current technology and its potentials have nothing to do with the progress towards defeating life on this planet may be somewhat lacking in awareness.
You seem to be confusing the elevation of science in relation to religion (the enlightenment) with scientific progress, which started long before and lasted long after it. Everyone knows that technology (somewhat different from science) has side effects and negatives. Those negatives existed before the enlightenment and, of course exist today. But you are reaching to imply that if the enlightenment never happened, and religion had a higher position in Modern times, that technology (which would, of course exist), would have no negative effects on the planet.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Jan Sand » May 30th, 2018, 3:19 am

LuckyR wrote:
May 30th, 2018, 1:26 am
Jan Sand wrote:
May 29th, 2018, 5:19 am
The enlightenment is defined as " a movement of the 18th century that stressed the belief that science and logic give people more knowledge and understanding than tradition and religion " I am very surprised that science and logic is now considered finished although I agree that the current political leaders, especially in the USA seem more out of Lewis Carroll than in line with science and logic. Nevertheless to imply that current technology and its potentials have nothing to do with the progress towards defeating life on this planet may be somewhat lacking in awareness.
You seem to be confusing the elevation of science in relation to religion (the enlightenment) with scientific progress, which started long before and lasted long after it. Everyone knows that technology (somewhat different from science) has side effects and negatives. Those negatives existed before the enlightenment and, of course exist today. But you are reaching to imply that if the enlightenment never happened, and religion had a higher position in Modern times, that technology (which would, of course exist), would have no negative effects on the planet.
To be despaired over the very likely coming obliteration of much of life on the planet with the tumultuous advance of current technology somehow approves of the obvious idiocies of religious fantasies s to accept the presumption that the only alternative to sensible understanding and appreciation of the forces of the universe is the abysmal nonsense of theology. Science cannot be divorced from technology any more than than the atomic bomb and all its implied disasters can be divorced from Einstein's revelation that matter contains within itself massive amounts of potential energies. When you place a loaded revolver in the hands of the average three-year-old the expectations that it will be an effective response to ensure that it will provide excellent insurance against the general rise of terrorism in our confused society seems rather dim. No doubt the depth of intellectual sophistication that science has added to people who appreciate the understanding of how humanity relates to the life on this planet is immensely helpful. But the hierarchical architecture of human society since ancient times down to the present has not favored either decent social considerations nor the possibilities of a sensible life for the bulk of our species. It has seen to it that the most egregious members of society acquire and maintain control of civilization throughout its development. As most amazing as the wonders that the best minds in science produced in the Manhattan Project the complete naivety of their horror when their first atomic bombs were used to pulverize the housewives and children and most ordinary people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki to no purpose other than to warn the entire world and Stalin in particular that a primitive primate in the Whitehouse now had the absolute power to destroy the world and was exuberated with its delights is a prime example of the ladvance of human development. The current financiers and corporate heads that pull the strings of the politicians they control in much of the world governments now in the process of destroying much of the world economy and the necessary ecology of the planet are no improvement over the most brutal ancient totalitarians of former eras. I, in no way, indicate that advancement in understanding of natural forces is inferior to the mental fantasies of religion. Just that humanity seems to have inerasable qualities that indicate it is not qualified to use the powers that science and technology offers.

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by -1- » May 30th, 2018, 3:20 am

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 29th, 2018, 6:00 am
But the amazing thing about The Enlightenment is that none of the key participants were aware that such a thing existed.
That's not amazing and it's not unique. The people living in medieval times did not know they lived in medieval times. People in Ancient Greece did not know they lived in Ancient Greece. People in Evolutionary times have been unaware of this, or too much aware and denying it. Or just rightly aware and calling it that.

Only people in modern times started to name their eras and to become aware of the eras they live in taken in an historical perspective.
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by -1- » May 30th, 2018, 3:25 am

Jan Sand wrote:
May 30th, 2018, 3:19 am

To be despaired over the very likely coming obliteration of much of life on the planet with the tumultuous advance of current technology somehow approves of the obvious idiocies of religious fantasies s to accept the presumption that the only alternative to sensible understanding and appreciation of the forces of the universe is the abysmal nonsense of theology. Science cannot be divorced from technology any more than than the atomic bomb and all its implied disasters can be divorced from Einstein's revelation that matter contains within itself massive amounts of potential energies. When you place a loaded revolver in the hands of the average three-year-old the expectations that it will be an effective response to ensure that it will provide excellent insurance against the general rise of terrorism in our confused society seems rather dim. No doubt the depth of intellectual sophistication that science has added to people who appreciate the understanding of how humanity relates to the life on this planet is immensely helpful. But the hierarchical architecture of human society since ancient times down to the present has not favored either decent social considerations nor the possibilities of a sensible life for the bulk of our species. It has seen to it that the most egregious members of society acquire and maintain control of civilization throughout its development. As most amazing as the wonders that the best minds in science produced in the Manhattan Project the complete naivety of their horror when their first atomic bombs were used to pulverize the housewives and children and most ordinary people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki to no purpose other than to warn the entire world and Stalin in particular that a primitive primate in the Whitehouse now had the absolute power to destroy the world and was exuberated with its delights is a prime example of the ladvance of human development. The current financiers and corporate heads that pull the strings of the politicians they control in much of the world governments now in the process of destroying much of the world economy and the necessary ecology of the planet are no improvement over the most brutal ancient totalitarians of former eras. I, in no way, indicate that advancement in understanding of natural forces is inferior to the mental fantasies of religion. Just that humanity seems to have inerasable qualities that indicate it is not qualified to use the powers that science and technology offers.
Whoa. Wall of text.

Please, paragraphing would help.

It's a psychological effect, more than anything else. But it's a powerful one. People's eyes go googly in reading walls of text. Some abandon reading it mid-way, some (like I) never even embark on reading it.
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Jan Sand » May 30th, 2018, 3:50 am

Sorry. I just scribbled it off and shipped it out.Is this any better?

To be despaired over the very likely coming obliteration of much of life on the planet with the tumultuous advance of current technology somehow approves of the obvious idiocies of religious fantasies is to accept the presumption that the only alternative to sensible understanding and appreciation of the forces of the universe is the abysmal nonsense of theology.

Science cannot be divorced from technology any more than than the atomic bomb and all its implied disasters can be divorced from Einstein's revelation that matter contains within itself massive amounts of potential energies. When you place a loaded revolver in the hands of the average three-year-old the expectations that it will be an effective response to ensure that it will provide excellent insurance against the general rise of terrorism in our confused society seems rather dim.

No doubt the depth of intellectual sophistication that science has added to people who appreciate the understanding of how humanity relates to the life on this planet is immensely helpful. But the hierarchical architecture of human society since ancient times down to the present has not favored either decent social considerations nor the possibilities of a sensible life for the bulk of our species. It has seen to it that the most egregious members of society acquire and maintain control of civilization throughout its development.

As most amazing as the wonders that the best minds in science produced in the Manhattan Project the complete naivety of their horror when their first atomic bombs were used to pulverize the housewives and children and most ordinary people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki to no purpose other than to warn the entire world and Stalin in particular that a primitive primate in the Whitehouse now had the absolute power to destroy the world and was exuberated with its delights is a prime example of the advance of human development.

The current financiers and corporate heads that pull the strings of the politicians they control in much of the world governments now in the process of destroying much of the world economy and the necessary ecology of the planet are no improvement over the most brutal ancient totalitarians of former eras. I, in no way, indicate that advancement in understanding of natural forces is inferior to the mental fantasies of religion. Just that humanity seems to have inerasable qualities that indicate it is not qualified to use the powers that science and technology offers.

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 30th, 2018, 1:44 pm

-1- wrote:
May 30th, 2018, 3:20 am
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 29th, 2018, 6:00 am
But the amazing thing about The Enlightenment is that none of the key participants were aware that such a thing existed.
That's not amazing and it's not unique. The people living in medieval times did not know they lived in medieval times. People in Ancient Greece did not know they lived in Ancient Greece. People in Evolutionary times have been unaware of this, or too much aware and denying it. Or just rightly aware and calling it that.

Only people in modern times started to name their eras and to become aware of the eras they live in taken in an historical perspective.
"Come men of the Middle Ages was are about to embark upon the 100 Years war: Just about sums up all historical discourse.
"The Enlightenment" is about as useful as astrology. Means what you want depending on what side of the bed you fell out of this morning.

The people of Ancient Greece did NOT live in ancient Greece. Think about it! But at least it refers to a time period. The Enlightenment is NOT a time period, but a political and ideological assertion and a choice about how to caricature the past.

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