Is abortion murder?

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Thinking critical
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Thinking critical » August 2nd, 2013, 8:36 pm

Thought_2000 wrote: (Nested quote removed.)
Goldilocks and the three bears Page 1:verse 1.Once upon a time there lived three bears in the woods, Poppa Bear, Mama Bear and Baby Bear.

Passages from the bible equate to nothing more than stories told by bronze men, you might as well be quoting fairy tales and telling us that it's proof that bears live cabins with furniture and eat porridge for breakfast. Again, what makes you think there was a sole creator for the Universe?
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Post by Misty » August 2nd, 2013, 9:55 pm

captain_crunk wrote:I don't know. I'm kind of with you on the fence in terms of this issue. I mean, once the child is capable of sustaining life on its own, I think it's definitely murder to abort the child at that point. Before that, I don't know though. I don't really have much knowledge in this issue, so it's hard for me to say.
No baby is capable of sustaining its life on its own, ever. In the womb it is sustained by its mother and at birth needs a caregiver for years. Viability, meaning, can live, can only do so if fed and cared for and is needed from conception to birth to many years old.
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Thought_2000 » August 3rd, 2013, 10:36 am

Thinking critical wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Goldilocks and the three bears Page 1:verse 1.Once upon a time there lived three bears in the woods, Poppa Bear, Mama Bear and Baby Bear.

Passages from the bible equate to nothing more than stories told by bronze men, you might as well be quoting fairy tales and telling us that it's proof that bears live cabins with furniture and eat porridge for breakfast.
Written and handed down on clay tablets in the order of Adam—Seth—Noah—Shem—Abraham—Isaac—Jacob and under the guidance of the holy spirit came to be Genesis 2. To compare this to your over post is beyond my thought process and if this is your belief, no one living can help you.

-- Updated August 3rd, 2013, 10:59 am to add the following --
Thinking critical wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Again, what makes you think there was a sole creator for the Universe?
I do not "think" there is a sole creator of the universe, I know there is a sole creator of the universe. I need not proof of the "as is", only faith. I am aware of it, understand it and know it true. I can tell you search for truths yet what is true is all around us and you see very little. I will admit that you have a lot of information in your mind but are extremely limited on knowledge as to what is true. The third level of awareness involves faith which you know nothing of - yet. At your fifth level of awareness you will know all that is true and i would not want to be in your shoes on that day - not judgmental.

I ask, until you know who "you" are will "you" ever know who you can become? The embryo in the womb that has been aborted will surely not, will you?

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Thinking critical
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Thinking critical » August 4th, 2013, 10:28 pm

Thought 2000 wrote:
Written and handed down on clay tablets in the order of Adam—Seth—Noah—Shem—Abraham—Isaac—Jacob and under the guidance of the holy spirit came to be Genesis 2. To compare this to your over post is beyond my thought process and if this is your belief, no one living can help you.
I think you've missed the point, there is know way to prove the accuracy of ancient scripture, there's no way of validating the accountability, how something is perceived compared to what actually happened are often two very different things. The Bible tells stories of super natural events and miracles, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, religious scripture can NOT provide this. Because nothing in the bible can be verified there's no reason to consider any of it as an accurate account of historical events.
I do not "think" there is a sole creator of the universe, I know there is a sole creator of the universe. I need not proof of the "as is", only faith.
Have you ever heard of a paradox before? That's all this is, it's an insult to philosophy, faith and knowledge are two very different things. To Know God Created the Universe you need verifiable objective evidence, to believe God created the Universe is faith, which is what you have, not knowledge.
I will admit that you have a lot of information in your mind but are extremely limited on knowledge as to what is true. The third level of awareness involves faith which you know nothing of - yet.
As I've stated in a post on another thread, epistemology is the philosophy of obtaining true and accurate knowledge. I don't need faith to know the sun brings heat, cause I can stand outside and feel the rays of light heat up my skin. Who are you dictate or assert which knowledge is correct when you clearly can't even grasp the basic premise of the scientific theories that I use to obtain my knowledge. Anyone can have faith, I have faith in plenty of things, the reason for my faith is because others have objectively verified the authenticity of that which I have faith in.
I ask, until you know who "you" are will "you" ever know who you can become?
I am constantly learning who I am everyday I wake up, I know who I am now and who I will become tomorrow, it is a constant process that occurs via my experience. Don't think for a second that just because I don't believe in God's my life has no meaning or that I have no purpose, cause you'll only be deluding yourself. My desires an aspirations to live and achieve are motivated by acknowledging I am a living, breathing , thinking, feeling part of this Universe that has given rise to my body and mind, I am part of something much bigger than myself and I have no intention to reducing existence to the creation of a man made manifested concept referred to as God.
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Thought_2000 » August 4th, 2013, 10:48 pm

I will admit that you have a lot of information in your mind but are extremely limited on knowledge as to what is true. The third level of awareness involves faith which you know nothing of - yet.

As I've stated in a post on another thread, epistemology is the philosophy of obtaining true and accurate knowledge. I don't need faith to know the sun brings heat, cause I can stand outside and feel the rays of light heat up my skin. Who are you dictate or assert which knowledge is correct when you clearly can't even grasp the basic premise of the scientific theories that I use to obtain my knowledge. Anyone can have faith, I have faith in plenty of things, the reason for my faith is because others have objectively verified the authenticity of that which I have faith in.
I ask, until you know who "you" are will "you" ever know who you can become?
I.[/quote]

A question to CT and a long one;

If you slept through the daylight and did not know whether it was day or night [been there before], could you believe that the sun outside [unaware at the moment] had the warmth and heat of they suns rays? My main point is, do we have to have the proof of sunburn to believe or have belief that the sun did come and go?

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Thinking critical » August 4th, 2013, 11:10 pm

Hi Thought:

I not 100% sure if I understand your question correctly but I'll do my best.
A question to CT and a long one;

If you slept through the daylight and did not know whether it was day or night [been there before], could you believe that the sun outside [unaware at the moment] had the warmth and heat of they suns rays? My main point is, do we have to have the proof of sunburn to believe or have belief that the sun did come and go?
There's a thought experiment in philosophy that relates to faith that says something along the lines of "When we go to bed at night do we actually know that the sun will rise again tomorrow?
The truth is we can't know for a fact that the sun will rise again tomorrow because we can't have knowledge of something that hasn't happened yet, so we have faith. But it's reasonable faith, because we have prior knowledge that the Sun has risen every other day throughout history, we basically have faith in our own prediction due to the consistency of the Sun rising. So we couldn't call it knowledge cause if an asteroid collided with our planet during the night and knocked earth off it's axis, then I couldn't acknowledge the sun rise therefore it would be a false claim.
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Thought_2000 » August 4th, 2013, 11:51 pm

Thinking critical wrote:Hi Thought:

I not 100% sure if I understand your question correctly but I'll do my best.


(Nested quote removed.)


There's a thought experiment in philosophy that relates to faith that says something along the lines of "When we go to bed at night do we actually know that the sun will rise again tomorrow?
The truth is we can't know for a fact that the sun will rise again tomorrow because we can't have knowledge of something that hasn't happened yet, so we have faith. But it's reasonable faith, because we have prior knowledge that the Sun has risen every other day throughout history, we basically have faith in our own prediction due to the consistency of the Sun rising. So we couldn't call it knowledge cause if an asteroid collided with our planet during the night and knocked earth off it's axis, then I couldn't acknowledge the sun rise therefore it would be a false claim.
Can I help or question again CT?

Do you fear or care if the sun rises tomorrow?

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Thinking critical » August 5th, 2013, 12:08 am

Thought_2000 wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Can I help or question again CT?

Do you fear or care if the sun rises tomorrow?
Well, I like living and I'm sure most other forms of life on this planet enjoy experiencing life to some degree as well, so yes I would definitely hope that the Sun rises tomorrow, life is something I care about. But I do not have a fear that it won't rise tomorrow, since I have no reason to.
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Thought_2000 » August 5th, 2013, 12:16 am

Thinking critical wrote: (Nested quote removed.)


Well, I like living and I'm sure most other forms of life on this planet enjoy experiencing life to some degree as well, so yes I would definitely hope that the Sun rises tomorrow, life is something I care about. But I do not have a fear that it won't rise tomorrow, since I have no reason to.
I applaud TC's response;

TC has faith and I am very pleased. I think the second part of faith is to be the best person you can be every day and I believe TC want's to be...

Response please///

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Thinking critical » August 5th, 2013, 1:11 am

Thanks, I have faith in many things, faith in myself to be a good person, faith in others to be humane and compassionate, even though humanity often cause me to question the faith I have in man kind, the selfless acts I see, hear and read about gives me hope that the future will become a better place for us all. One of my favourite quotes is "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Thought_2000 » August 5th, 2013, 10:29 pm

Thinking critical wrote:Thanks, I have faith in many things, faith in myself to be a good person, faith in others to be humane and compassionate, even though humanity often cause me to question the faith I have in man kind, the selfless acts I see, hear and read about gives me hope that the future will become a better place for us all. One of my favourite quotes is "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Very cool post TC...

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Maryjane Richard » April 27th, 2018, 7:48 am

abortion is a deal to most people, especially when it comes to religious believes. At some point people find themselves in a situation where there are no other options than to have an abortion, situation where the fetus is a thereat to the mothers live, there an abortion may be ideal. But, in Africa, where we have a high rate of respect for our cultural values, norms and believes, no girl in her right senses would want to keep a child that may or may not have a father before marriage, thereby bringing shame on her family, drop out from school and receive all the social harassment, the next thing that comes to her mind is an abortion. So, I say abortion is murder,its wrong and unlawful because we can not give life and we have no right to take one but, most people do not have the choice.

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by LuckyR » April 28th, 2018, 2:47 am

Maryjane Richard wrote:
April 27th, 2018, 7:48 am
abortion is a deal to most people, especially when it comes to religious believes. At some point people find themselves in a situation where there are no other options than to have an abortion, situation where the fetus is a thereat to the mothers live, there an abortion may be ideal. But, in Africa, where we have a high rate of respect for our cultural values, norms and believes, no girl in her right senses would want to keep a child that may or may not have a father before marriage, thereby bringing shame on her family, drop out from school and receive all the social harassment, the next thing that comes to her mind is an abortion. So, I say abortion is murder,its wrong and unlawful because we can not give life and we have no right to take one but, most people do not have the choice.
So is it “ideal”, or is it “murder”?
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Thinking critical » April 28th, 2018, 8:35 am

The problem is, murder can be de defined an classified by legal systems yet it is extremely hard to define at what stage an embryo can be called human? If we then use terms such as potential human, the we need factor in all forms of birth control and masturbation as potential murder. We then need to consider why we would give 2x bio chemical cells more rights than a living, breathing, life experiencing chicken?
How can someone call abortion murder and agree with the death penalty?

Society needs support and education to prevent the need for abortion as opposed to punishment and judgement.
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Re: Is abortion murder?

Post by Big Boss » May 1st, 2018, 6:33 am

Thinking critical wrote:
April 28th, 2018, 8:35 am
The problem is, murder can be de defined an classified by legal systems yet it is extremely hard to define at what stage an embryo can be called human? If we then use terms such as potential human, the we need factor in all forms of birth control and masturbation as potential murder. We then need to consider why we would give 2x bio chemical cells more rights than a living, breathing, life experiencing chicken?
How can someone call abortion murder and agree with the death penalty?

Society needs support and education to prevent the need for abortion as opposed to punishment and judgement.
Wholeheartedly agree, good sir.

I am signing off for the night from my Wittgenstein university work, so my reading of your post may have somewhat influenced by this, but I note you mention 'define' a couple of times and I think this is the crux of it. We don't actually have a set definition of what 'human' is or if a fetus is even deemed something that could be murdered. It seems to be a problem of definition and in one era we may say "yes, it is murder" and another "no, it is not murder" and both are absolutely correct due to the accepted definitions of that era.

Screw what I just said above though, I tend to be liberal when it comes to abortion and see no issue with it. I am happy with the term of potential person or potential human as an explanation, but I don't see this label as a reason to provide more rights to a bunch of cells. It is just a helpful way to explain what a fetus is.

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