Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?

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Sy Borg
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?

Post by Sy Borg »

I am not your research assistant, YIOSTHEOY. I assume that you are accusing me of being a liar. Hello to you, too.

When people say things that I suspect are unreliable I do the research. Myself. If you do not have the capacity to Google such widely reported stats, then I don't know how you can research anything.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
YIOSTHEOY
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?

Post by YIOSTHEOY »

Greta wrote:I am not your research assistant, YIOSTHEOY. I assume that you are accusing me of being a liar. Hello to you, too.

When people say things that I suspect are unreliable I do the research. Myself. If you do not have the capacity to Google such widely reported stats, then I don't know how you can research anything.
I can easily refute your assertion of facts that religion is declining, at least among Catholics, as soon as I am able to post u.r.l.'s.

In the meantime I am in a bit of a bind. I presume that will be allowed in due course after 20 posts are approved.

I do believe your alleged studies are in error, however that is not my question. I am wondering how you yourself would react if you discovered them in error yourself.
YIOSTHEOY
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?

Post by YIOSTHEOY »

Greta wrote:I am not your research assistant, YIOSTHEOY. I assume that you are accusing me of being a liar. Hello to you, too.

When people say things that I suspect are unreliable I do the research. Myself. If you do not have the capacity to Google such widely reported stats, then I don't know how you can research anything.
I'll try posting this u.r.l. for you to see if I can now that I have 20 posts.

It pretty much addresses your issue as far as Catholicism goes.

... oops ... I also need to wait 3 days ... so you'll need to wait for my cite, sorry ... not my fault.
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Ormond
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?

Post by Ormond »

Greta wrote:I'm not sure I "base any philosophy" on stats, or what that even means.
It appears YIOSTHEOY is replying to exactly what you yourself said. Are you now saying that you don't know what you meant when you said it?? How about we grant you a free re-do on that one and you try again.
If religions stopped interfering with people's private lives I'd have a very different view of them.
Again, are you saying that religious people don't have a right to participate in the political process?

Do you believe heroin and meth should be legal, and that prescription drugs should not be regulated? If you have voted no on that proposal, aren't you interfering with people's private lives?

And again, you are being very imprecise, otherwise known as sloppy, sloppy, sloppy. You keep using sweeping all inclusive categories such as "religions" or "religious people". The reality is far more complex, so much so that an intelligent educated person such as yourself should immediately recognize that your perspective is simplistic and utterly lacking in nuance, ie. ideology.

As example, let's take just one well known religion, Catholicism. I took the following quote from Pew Research, a very highly regarded independent research firm.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... ir-church/

The following quote from that page illustrates how incredibly complicated religious viewpoints can be within even for a single religion within a single country.
For instance, the recent Pew Research survey finds that U.S. Catholics are divided on homosexual behavior, with 44% saying it is sinful and 39% saying it is not – a figure that rises to 51% among Catholic adults under age 30. And majorities of Catholics say that living with a romantic partner outside marriage (54%) and getting a divorce (61%) are not sinful. About half (49%) say remarrying after a divorce without first obtaining an annulment is not a sin.

In addition, fully two-thirds of U.S. Catholics (66%) say using artificial birth control is not a sin. Even 57% of the most devout Catholics – those who report attending Mass at least weekly – say using contraceptives is not wrong.

Those who attend Mass weekly or more are divided over the sinfulness of cohabitation (46% say it is sinful, 45% say it is not). But these Catholics also are more likely to agree with church teachings when it comes to abortion and engaging in homosexual behavior: 73% and 59%, respectively, say these are sins. Indeed, a majority of all Catholics, regardless of whether they attend Mass regularly, say abortion is sinful (57%).
My bottom line point is this.

1) Atheist ideologues are entirely right that reason can be a great alternative to religion.

2) Atheist ideologues have not yet sold themselves on converting from ideology to reason.

3) Until atheist ideologues are able to sell themselves on trading ideology for reason, they stand exactly no chance of selling religious people on such a transformation, thus all the things that concern you will continue without pause.

You want religious people to trade ideology for reason. The first step in that process is for you to do what you want them to do.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?

Post by Sy Borg »

Ormond wrote:Again, are you saying that religious people don't have a right to participate in the political process?
They have no business interfering with people's private lives.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.
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Ormond
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?

Post by Ormond »

Greta wrote:They have no business interfering with people's private lives.
Do you see how you're continually dodging this, by simply restating your simplistic dogmas? That's ideology at work, with victory, or least not defeat, being the top priority. Jehovah's Witnesses do the same thing, they just repeat the memorized company line in response to any inconvenient question until they wear you down and you go away.

And, let's observe how you still insist on using sweeping words like "they" referring to all religious people, when you've already seen the significant diversity of opinion in one large religious group, American Catholics.

Let's take a specific example, gay marriage. I totally agree gay marriage should be legal and assume you do too, so no need to debate that. Instead, we might debate the following...

1) Do religious people have the right to have an opinion on this topic?

2) Do religious people have a right to vote their opinion?

3) Should religious people be obligated by law to sell services to those involved in gay marriages? That is, do we seculars have a right to interfere in religious people's lives by forcing them to participate in commerce they would not choose to be involved in?
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.
YIOSTHEOY
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?

Post by YIOSTHEOY »

Ormond wrote:
Greta wrote:They have no business interfering with people's private lives.
Do you see how you're continually dodging this, by simply restating your simplistic dogmas? That's ideology at work, with victory, or least not defeat, being the top priority. Jehovah's Witnesses do the same thing, they just repeat the memorized company line in response to any inconvenient question until they wear you down and you go away.

And, let's observe how you still insist on using sweeping words like "they" referring to all religious people, when you've already seen the significant diversity of opinion in one large religious group, American Catholics.

Let's take a specific example, gay marriage. I totally agree gay marriage should be legal and assume you do too, so no need to debate that. Instead, we might debate the following...

1) Do religious people have the right to have an opinion on this topic?

2) Do religious people have a right to vote their opinion?

3) Should religious people be obligated by law to sell services to those involved in gay marriages? That is, do we seculars have a right to interfere in religious people's lives by forcing them to participate in commerce they would not choose to be involved in?
I am pretty sure that the 1st Federal Amendment to the U.S. Constitution separates Church and State.

Therefore any religious doctrines should not become Federal or State law.

I am surprised the SCOTUS justices did not mention this in their recent Court ruling on nationwide same-sex marriage.

Instead they reached out for the 10th Federal Amendment instead and said that Gays, Lesbians, and everyone else deserves to have the rights of marriages. That's the law, now that the SCOTUS has pronounced it.

Whenever you have representative elected government (some people nit pick at the word "democracy") with separation of powers between the Legislature, the Administration, and the Judiciary, then the judicial law is no less if not superior to the legislative law.

This truth regarding separation of powers was in-your-face for GW Bush and his "defense of marriage act". It is hilarious that the SCOTUS did not agree with him on that.

It has less to do with the Jewish or the Christian God however (two different Gods by the way -- they even have different names -- one has a Son and the other does not -- etc.) It has more to do with violating the 1st Amendment in the case of Federal legislation and Federal administration.
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Ormond
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?

Post by Ormond »

YIOSTHEOY wrote:I am pretty sure that the 1st Federal Amendment to the U.S. Constitution separates Church and State. Therefore any religious doctrines should not become Federal or State law.
Agreed in principle, so now let's dig in to the inconvenient details.

What if some secular non-religious people also oppose gay marriage, as surely must be the case? Does the fact that some (please read the word "some" again) religious people oppose gay marriage make that view a religious doctrine which therefore can not be considered at the voting booth?

Is the anti-gay marriage position a religious doctrine if some religious people support gay marriage while others do not?

What if one religion is officially anti-gay marriage while another religion is officially pro-gay marriage? Is the anti-gay marriage position still disqualified from being considered by lawmakers?

BTW, please let me repeat I am 1000% in favor of gay marriage, and have been banned from a number of religious forums for arguing that point. This is a philosophical exercise, not a sales job for homophobia.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.
YIOSTHEOY
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?

Post by YIOSTHEOY »

Ormond wrote:
YIOSTHEOY wrote:I am pretty sure that the 1st Federal Amendment to the U.S. Constitution separates Church and State. Therefore any religious doctrines should not become Federal or State law.
Agreed in principle, so now let's dig in to the inconvenient details.

What if some secular non-religious people also oppose gay marriage, as surely must be the case? Does the fact that some (please read the word "some" again) religious people oppose gay marriage make that view a religious doctrine which therefore can not be considered at the voting booth?

Is the anti-gay marriage position a religious doctrine if some religious people support gay marriage while others do not?

What if one religion is officially anti-gay marriage while another religion is officially pro-gay marriage? Is the anti-gay marriage position still disqualified from being considered by lawmakers?

BTW, please let me repeat I am 1000% in favor of gay marriage, and have been banned from a number of religious forums for arguing that point. This is a philosophical exercise, not a sales job for homophobia.
I am guessing that the current SCOTUS saw the same problem that you now see too, and therefore steered clear of it by navigating with the 14th Amendment as their legal compass on this issue rather than the 1st.

My personal view is that since there are tax and social security and legal implications to marriage, therefore these same rights should not be denied to same sex couples. It is a strictly secular view.

The 1st Amendment however ensures that the USA would and will be a secular government not religion based.

The far right Protestants always come out of the woodwork and swarm against me on this issue however.
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Ormond
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?

Post by Ormond »

YIOSTHEOY wrote:The 1st Amendment however ensures that the USA would and will be a secular government not religion based.
A prominent religious doctrine found in the ten commandments and common to most religions is, thou shall not kill.

If we are not allowed to use religious doctrines as the basis for laws, are we therefore prohibited from passing laws against murder? If religious people promote laws against murder, are they interfering in our private lives? After all, if I want to murder my wife isn't that a private family matter, and none of their business?

Point being, at first it seems quite simple that religion and state should not mix. But once we scratch the surface of the issue just a bit, it gets pretty complicated pretty quickly.

As example, it's impossible to subtract from the equation the 1,000 unbroken years when the Catholic Church thoroughly dominated western culture to a degree we can't even imagine today. None of us can be entirely free from such a profound influence, even if we are adamantly anti-Catholic.

There isn't a hard sharp black and white line between religious and secular culture, as the adamant activists on all sides would like us to think. Western culture is more of a melting pot stew that exists inside each of us. As example, ardent atheists are often using the morality pounded in to the heads of western culture by the Catholics, to debunk the Catholics.

Like it or not, the Catholics are the cultural parents of we seculars in the West, and the Jews are our grandparents. We've inherited the intense interest in morality of these ancient traditions, and the hypocrisy that goes along with it too. As example, the passion ardent atheist activists have for simplistic good guy/bad guy formulas such secular=good and religion=bad arises directly out of the dualistic black/white, good/evil foundations of both Christianity and Judiasm.

It took thousands of years to infuse western culture with Judeo-Christian philosophies and values. It will take more thousands to finally be free of those influences. There's nothing any of us can really do about these historical realities, as they are far bigger than any of us.
If the things we want to hear could take us where we want to go, we'd already be there.
Steve3007
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?

Post by Steve3007 »

Ormond:
If the physics folks had stuck to sucking on their pipes, we still would have defeated the Nazis and Japanese. Soviet armies might have rolled through all of Europe, but the Soviet Union still would have collapsed because it's internal logic was unsustainable.
With the benefit of hindsight you're probably right. Obviously one argument for using the A bomb was to avoid a ground invasion with many more causalities etc. Whether it's valid or not in that specific case, the "kill a few to save many" argument isn't entirely without merit. We use it a lot.

Anyway, given what was known at the time, I don't really see how some kind of alternative education system for the people who made those decisions and sucked those pipes would have lead them to behave differently. If they had been told at school some vague message like "don't try to learn too much if it looks like the thing you're learning might be used to do really bad stuff in the future. Just learn good stuff. And not too much of it." I'm not sure that would have lead them to eschew nuclear research. But I could be wrong.
We used to worship the Judaeo-Christian God. Now we worship ourselves. The later will prove to be far more dangerous, imho.
Yes, this is a commonly heard theme. If I watch celebrity-obsessed Reality TV and Loreal ads that tell me "I'm worth it" then maybe I can believe that. But, in general, I choose not to watch those things. So when you say "we" worship ourselves, I guess I'd have to ask who this "we" person is, so I can suggest to them that they watch less trash TV.
YIOSTHEOY
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Re: Why the obsession with the Judaeo-Christian God?

Post by YIOSTHEOY »

Ormond wrote:
YIOSTHEOY wrote:The 1st Amendment however ensures that the USA would and will be a secular government not religion based.
A prominent religious doctrine found in the ten commandments and common to most religions is, thou shall not kill.

If we are not allowed to use religious doctrines as the basis for laws, are we therefore prohibited from passing laws against murder? If religious people promote laws against murder, are they interfering in our private lives? After all, if I want to murder my wife isn't that a private family matter, and none of their business?

Point being, at first it seems quite simple that religion and state should not mix. But once we scratch the surface of the issue just a bit, it gets pretty complicated pretty quickly.

As example, it's impossible to subtract from the equation the 1,000 unbroken years when the Catholic Church thoroughly dominated western culture to a degree we can't even imagine today. None of us can be entirely free from such a profound influence, even if we are adamantly anti-Catholic.

There isn't a hard sharp black and white line between religious and secular culture, as the adamant activists on all sides would like us to think. Western culture is more of a melting pot stew that exists inside each of us. As example, ardent atheists are often using the morality pounded in to the heads of western culture by the Catholics, to debunk the Catholics.

Like it or not, the Catholics are the cultural parents of we seculars in the West, and the Jews are our grandparents. We've inherited the intense interest in morality of these ancient traditions, and the hypocrisy that goes along with it too. As example, the passion ardent atheist activists have for simplistic good guy/bad guy formulas such secular=good and religion=bad arises directly out of the dualistic black/white, good/evil foundations of both Christianity and Judiasm.

It took thousands of years to infuse western culture with Judeo-Christian philosophies and values. It will take more thousands to finally be free of those influences. There's nothing any of us can really do about these historical realities, as they are far bigger than any of us.
Moses most likely got his own rules from Hammurabi.

Murder was a big deal even anciently. As was robbery and other forms of theft. As was falsely accusing and other forms of lying.

I think if you took a bigger look at history you would not fall into the trap of thinking everything in the Bible is religious. A lot of it is, but some of it is not.
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