Free Will & Determinism
- Dchristian
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Free Will & Determinism
I just registered for this site and I hope I can get a decent conversation going here! I wanted to just ask for anyone's opinions on free will and determinism. You can say anything you'd like whether you're a libertarian, compatibilist, or hard determinist. I will also post what I think about free will and determinism and you guys can feel free to ask me questions, challenge my opinion, etc.!
Personally, I believe that both free will and determinism are true, but not as compatible truths but rather separate truths. I remember a philosopher and friend of mine, Luke, showed me a great video about this from Big Think and the lecturer was Frank Wilczek--a physicist. Here's a title for the video on Youtube.
"To Understand the Brain We Need to Consider Multiple Realities, with Frank Wilczek"
So in regards to free will and determinism, I think that they are both separate truths. I think when it comes to biology like our genes, determinism makes the most sense. But when it comes to ethics like whether people who are mentally healthy are obeying the law or not, I think free will makes the most sense.
It's not so much that these two ideas are compatible but as I said before rather separate. You can't really say that someone was "determined to" and "freely chose to" break the law. And you can't say that someone was "determined to be" six feet tall and "chose to be" six feet tall. In the case of someone's height, that's determinism. But in the case of a mentally healthy person breaking the law, I think that's free will.
Please watch the Big Think video I posted as a link above because Dr. Wilczek explains things very well and he uses a great analogy to explain his reasoning.
Have a good night, everybody!
- Citizensearth
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Re: Free Will & Determinism
My general take is that compatibilism is broadly correct. I think one difficulty that people run into when thinking about the problem is that they imagine a libertarian free will in a determinist universe, and so find the two are incompatible. So, they start from the idea as free will being an abstract entity making acausal choices and thus determining their own fate, which they feel certain of. When they start to think about a determinist universe, they imagine causality with its chain reaction of events, and then imagine the abstract entity as external to that chain and unable to influence events. From this arises the "fate being prewritten regardless of my choices" or "how can I really choose" perception of determinism, with a the powerless consciousness observing events over which it has no control, which is indeed an unpleasant message. IMO the more correct way to approach this is to say that choices exist and they are simply part of the causal chain. They might not be metaphysical, they might simply be determined, but that does not lessen their significance or power. When you make a choice, that does influence your "fate", regardless of what may have causally come before, and so we can legitimately feel that choice matters and that we're in control when we think about a causal universe.
- Dchristian
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Re: Free Will & Determinism
I think you're making a good point. The way I interpret your reply is that our decisions may not be free in the libertarian sense, but like you said that doesn't mean that the events we make (our decisions) lose their power or significance. I guess the way I think of what you're saying is that the concept of libertarian free will is an illusion, but it's a more practical illusion and treating this illusion of libertarian free will as being real makes a difference. I would say I’m not completely closed to compatibilism because the concept of moral accountability and determinism is so complex.
In the video I mentioned with the physicist, Frank Wilczek, he talked about particle motion and particle location. He said that, “if you want to know where a particle is you have to process its most basic reality, it’s wave function in one way. If you want to know how fast it’s moving, its velocity or momentum, you have to process the wave function in a different way. And you can do either one of those and get good answers for where it’s going to be or how it’s going to move. But you can’t do both at once because the kind of processing that’s involved is incompatible.”
With what Dr. Wilczek said, I think that his analysis of particle motion vs. particle location could be a good analogy of free will vs. determinism. I’m not a physicist so I may be getting things wrong, but I think you could say that using determinism can get you good results for what a person might do in the future, or you can probably accurately calculate what a person might do in the future with free will.
So maybe when a physicist tries to figure out a particle’s location using wave function in one way that could represent us trying to figure out how a person’s brain works using determinism. But when a physicist uses wave function in a different way to figure out a particle’s velocity maybe that could represent us using free will to explain how a person chose something that seemed completely opposite to what their brain in its determined settings would do.
I don’t know if this really makes much sense, but I hope it helps to explain my way of thinking! I guess in conclusion I’d be more of a libertarian when it comes to ethics and more of a hard determinist when it comes to things like human biology. If you ever want to me to try and explain myself better feel free in asking me to do so. Have a good one!
- Citizensearth
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Re: Free Will & Determinism
- LuckyR
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Re: Free Will & Determinism
- Misty
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Re: Free Will & Determinism
The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.
I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.
- LuckyR
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Re: Free Will & Determinism
I do not use that definition of "free", that is free to make any and all choices. Though I suppose that if I make the conscious choice to fly off of a building (impossible), the fact I will fail does not mean I didn't exercise my Free Will to try.Misty wrote:Pre-determinism is ALL the possibilities offered to the Will, therefore the Will is not free but is controlled by possibility.
- Misty
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Re: Free Will & Determinism
In your scenario you did not use 'free will', but your 'will' under the influence of a learned possibility.LuckyR wrote:I do not use that definition of "free", that is free to make any and all choices. Though I suppose that if I make the conscious choice to fly off of a building (impossible), the fact I will fail does not mean I didn't exercise my Free Will to try.Misty wrote:Pre-determinism is ALL the possibilities offered to the Will, therefore the Will is not free but is controlled by possibility.
The eyes can only see what the mind has, is, or will be prepared to comprehend.
I am Lion, hear me ROAR! Meow.
- AceOfBlades
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Re: Free Will & Determinism
Am I taking a serious issue not seriously enough? Am I being too direct? Too certain where certainty should not belong? Maybe I'm not so clever, too easily satisfied by philosophies told to children to allow themselves to be content with who they are. But it is what i believe, and that is enough for me.
- Damir Ibrisimovic
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Re: Free Will & Determinism
----Dchristian wrote: ↑July 4th, 2016, 1:41 am Personally, I believe that both free will and determinism are true...
So in regards to free will and determinism, I think that they are both separate truths.
Since Libet's findings started to trickle out ---
there was a lot of nonsense about our Free Will...
What???!!! My Free Will is useless???!!! I'll give it up...
Here, my friend, take it and tell me what to do...
Now, how could I give up something I do/did not have???
-----
I have started this joke on 22 May 2011. The joke offers several scenarios to prove undeniably the existence of Free Will. The scenarios are so simple that experiments can be conducted in a cafe...
Enjoy the day,
- Papus79
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Re: Free Will & Determinism
I think the trouble for me, what absolutely kills it, is the concept that we exist in time and go in one direction. At any given moment we have the exact set of information, the exact set of options, the exact neurochemical state, the exact level of composure or surprise, and there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that we could do any different than, if rewound and played back in five minute intervals, make video-recording quality (really more precise) replicas of exactly what we did. For me this also transcends layers, complexity, whether or not conscious is only the brain, whether there are or aren't angels, demons, dogs, goddesses, the four elemental kingdoms, or whatever else you can think of to throw at it.
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Re: Free Will & Determinism
If it was not determined, then determinism can't be universally true. So maybe there is free will.
- LuckyR
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Re: Free Will & Determinism
Your analysis is a very common one, that many feel leads either to a paradox or to a "logical" conclusion that defies their observations.Wmhoerr wrote: ↑January 8th, 2019, 1:01 am First, I think that if there is derterminism, then there cannot be free will. But what about leaving life and therefore people out of the discussion for a moment. I don't know if this makes sense, but is determinism linked to the big bang? If determinism is true, was the big bang determined? As there's meant to have been nothing before the big bang, how could it betermined by nothing?
If it was not determined, then determinism can't be universally true. So maybe there is free will.
However I have realized that a bit of additional information and consideration can reconcile what many find logical theoretically with their real world observations. Namely that if you call determinism the observation of cause and effect in the physical world, predeterminism the ultimate expression of determinism that either can or cannot be applied to the physical world and the neurological world (billiard balls vs decision making), and free will as the behavior and thus the predictability of neurological systems, then one could suppose that the physical world and the neurological world are under the influence of determinism, the physical world may be predetermined and that the neurological world is perhaps determined, is definitely not predetermined and thus acts identically as if there is free will, likely because there is free will.
Thus determinism (of the physical world) and free will (of the neurological world) can co-exist quite nicely.
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Re: Free Will & Determinism
- LuckyR
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Re: Free Will & Determinism
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023