New president of US

[Sy Borg]

Bozo was a poor choice. Ronald McDonald has his own foundation for children, a proven record. Bozo doesn't have the record or experience for the job. I suppose people were happy with a B grade actor as President, and then there's "The Governator", so people probably figure that a reality TV star and multiple bankruptee developer will do more or less the same job.

[Roel]

(Nested quote removed.)


I would agree that a policy of "almost anyone can post almost anything" is the dominant group consensus of the forum realm. And that's why we rarely see real politicians, or real religious leaders, or real scientists, or anybody too interesting participating. Democratic inclusion is a noble principle, but it comes with a steep price tag, triumph of the lowest common denominator.

If you disagree with it, you are free to leave this forum.

Again, by your logic we should also have multiple threads going on for an endless number of pages discussing my support for Bozo the Clown, or any other ridiculous cause any clueless member wishes to sell. Shouldn't there be some point at which we declare some views unworthy of our time?

If you can create a serious topic with a seriously well-posed argument, you can create a topic about Bozo the Clown and have it accepted, but if you only show support it's preaching and not allowed. Trump is the new president of the US, even if he acts as a clown he is important enough for serious discussion, both by opponents and supporters.

I heard from polls that highly educated people voted for Trump too. Do you want to disqualify them too?

High education does not automatically equal common sense, or moral credibility.

Someone with a high education has a high intelligence and can participate in philosophical discussions.

I remember once seeing what looked like a white suprematist/ someone who doesn't like jews in a topic, we can't deny him access as the staff of this forum. We are an open forum, and everyone, no matter where on the political spectrum you are, even anarchist, alt-right, communist or other extreme forms of politics should be welcome to participate in discussions here, as long as they don't trespass the forum rules and don't do anything illegal.

Ok then, so I hate **** and ****** and queers and when Bozo the Clown is elected they'll all be sent to the ovens. Please give my proposal the same respect as all other views, and discuss it for the next 73 pages.

Saying that you hate such groups is against the forum rules. Saying these things is deliberately there to offend others, the case I talked about was a user here who said most media are run by jews. It is not clear for me as a moderator if he breaks the rules with this, especially in a media discussion where it might be relevant and backed up with arguments, as this isn't a direct attack against jews as a whole, I can look up his post if you like. If he says however that they should be sent to the gas chambers, that is hate and against the rules and will be given a warning by me or another moderator/admin.

[Nick_A]

Ormond wrote:

If we have to politely consider the views of Trump voters, then I demand we also discuss why my candidate Bozo The Clown would make a great president. Clarity of thought and expression requires that if this forum is going to be a cartoon show, we label it as such.

Another attack on me, a Trump voter. What could be worse in this day and age than an alpha male who loves America? Trump has proven that he can make money and can organize a successful company. Why not a succesful government? Not only that but he knows what the word illegal means. It is an obscure word no longer taught in progressive education but for those who still remember it, the word relates to the importance of laws in a free society as well as equality under the law. I am convinced that Trump knows what the phrase illegal aliens means. Even if progressives have forgotten its meaning there are many who still remember. I am one. If this forum wants to eliminate corruption and foolishness then by all means ban progressives. But since I am open minded I know they can only learn the error of their ways through open discussion. So we must be tolerant. It isn’t their fault that they have been made to endure the brain washing of a progressive education. It takes a while to return to common sense.

[Felix]

I am convinced that Trump knows what the phrase illegal aliens means.

I would think so, since he married one. But she is of white European descent so it's o.k. with him.

[Belindi]

Nick_A wrote:

Another attack on me, a Trump voter. What could be worse in this day and age than an alpha male who loves America? Trump has proven that he can make money and can organize a successful company.

Nick, your idea of what is an alpha male is a wrong idea.A human alpha male serves others even if by so doing he sacrifices himself, and thatis what demonstrates strength.

[Fooloso4]

Nick_A:

Trump has proven that he can make money and can organize a successful company.

Trump has proven over and over again that he can bankrupt a company. He has shown that he can take millions from his father and make less than if he had just invested it conservatively. He has shown that he refuses to pay people what they are owed for work done for his company. What he has not shown is his tax return.

Trump knows what the phrase illegal aliens means.

Yes, he knows what the phrase means but what neither you nor him know is what the complexity of the problem is. He has been walking back his pledges ever since he has been elected and has started to learn that there is more to it than saying "you're fired" or "you're deported". Although his followers see his lack of knowledge and inexperience in government as an asset there is more to being President than beating your chest like an orange alpha ape.

Here is an article written in the New York Times that you will probably ignore because it is run by people who have a “progressive education”, contains facts and numbers, and quotes experts:

nytimes.com/2016/11/15/us/politics/dona ... rants.html

If this forum wants to eliminate corruption and foolishness then by all means ban progressives. But since I am open minded …

I'll let that speak for itself.

[Nick_A]

Nick_A wrote:

Another attack on me, a Trump voter. What could be worse in this day and age than an alpha male who loves America? Trump has proven that he can make money and can organize a successful company.

Nick, your idea of what is an alpha male is a wrong idea.A human alpha male serves others even if by so doing he sacrifices himself, and thatis what demonstrates strength.

An alpha male has will and is capable of exercising it. An alpha male would be capable of either good or evil defined by societal standards. From Plato’s Cave allegory:

The wise have to return to the cave, and act there. One has to reach the stage where power is in the hands of those who refuse it, and not of those whose ambition it is to possess it.

This is really an interesting idea, It is also a biblical idea.

Matthew 4: 8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”
11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

As the ultimate alpha male Jesus could have dominated and acquired the power to rule the world but he knew that true human meaning and purpose was not acquired by ruling the world but by healing it through connecting the higher with the lower and establishing a conscious connection making it possible.

Of course Donald Trump is no Jesus Christ but I do believe that his lust for power ha been satisfied and knows his name will really go down in history if he helps America to remember what it is losing and inspires the good that will come from this recollection.

[Fooloso4]

Nick_A:

An alpha male has will and is capable of exercising it. An alpha male would be capable of either good or evil defined by societal standards. From Plato’s Cave allegory

It is no surprise that you drag your ill-informed reading of the cave allegory in here as you do every opportunity you get. First, the philosopher not return to the cave of their own volition, second, the philosophers are female as well as male, third, the philosopher does not rule by will but by wisdom, and fourth, Plato is quite clear that the philosopher has no power to exercise his or her will in actual cities.

The idea that Trump is capable of ruling by wisdom is ludicrous. He is not an “alpha male” if you are going to define that term in relation to the philosopher-king.

The wise have to return to the cave, and act there. One has to reach the stage where power is in the hands of those who refuse it, and not of those whose ambition it is to possess it.

Only this is not Donald Trump. He has actively sought the Presidency for years. That is his oft stated ambition.

As the ultimate alpha male Jesus could have dominated and acquired the power to rule the world but …

But he didn’t. All that we know is that he didn’t. He did not wield political power. All else is a matter of conjecture based on belief, stories about a man who failed to accomplish what they believed he would. My point is not theological, it is political - someone like Jesus would never seek and would never obtain political power.

Of course Donald Trump is no Jesus Christ but I do believe that his lust for power ha been satisfied …

The thing about lust for power, like lust for money, it is never satisfied. We do not know how much money he actually has since he refuses to release his tax returns, but like most politicians he will leave office with far more money that he did going in. And like most politicians he will leave office with far more power than he had when he entered.

If Jesus was an “alpha male” it was for two reasons: one, genuine moral authority, and two, the belief of his followers that he was the Messiah. Trump is neither. And so, if you are going to define an “alpha male” in relation to Jesus, Trump’s moral degeneracy disqualifies him. Some, however, do believe he is their Savior. But, as is evident, some people will believe anything and turn a blind eye so as not to see what they do not wish to see.

Trump is the antithesis of Plato’s philosopher and Jesus by almost every objective measure one might use, but since you approve of your version of the philosopher and Jesus and Trump, somehow in your mind they all the same. You identify Trump, the palatial cave-dweller who doesn’t want to leave his cave to live in the White House with the philosopher (male and female) who has escaped the cave and wants nothing to do with politics or fame or public recognition. You identify Trump, the immoral, misogynist, racist, compulsive liar, who has never give a penny to help the poor, with Jesus. If you are going to insist that Trump is an alpha male you will need some new models of what an alpha male is.

[Nick_A]

Fooloso4 wrote: Nick_A wrote: An alpha male has will and is capable of exercising it. An alpha male would be capable of either good or evil defined by societal standards. From Plato’s Cave allegory


It is no surprise that you drag your ill-informed reading of the cave allegory in here as you do every opportunity you get. First, the philosopher not return to the cave of their own volition, second, the philosophers are female as well as male, third, the philosopher does not rule by will but by wisdom, and fourth, Plato is quite clear that the philosopher has no power to exercise his or her will in actual cities.

First of all philosophers do voluntarily return to the cave as I've highlighted. Second I was writing about alpha males and not philosophers. Only alpha males and females can become philosophers capable of leaving the cave and entering again, Others are too inwardly weak and adopt progressive philosophy.

[Socrates] Observe, Glaucon, that there will be no injustice in compelling our philosophers to have a care and providence of others; we shall explain to them that in other States, men of their class are not obliged to share in the toils of politics: and this is reasonable, for they grow up at their own sweet will, and the government would rather not have them. Being self-taught, they cannot be expected to show any gratitude for a culture which they have never received. But we have brought you into the world to be rulers of the hive, kings of yourselves and of the other citizens, and have educated you far better and more perfectly than they have been educated, and you are better able to share in the double duty. Wherefore each of you, when his turn comes, must go down to the general underground abode, and get the habit of seeing in the dark. When you have acquired the habit, you will see ten thousand times better than the inhabitants of the cave, and you will know what the several images are, and what they represent, because you have seen the beautiful and just and good in their truth. And thus our State which is also yours will be a reality, and not a dream only, and will be administered in a spirit unlike that of other States, in which men fight with one another about shadows only and are distracted in the struggle for power, which in their eyes is a great good. Whereas the truth is that the State in which the rulers are most reluctant to govern is always the best and most quietly governed, and the State in which they are most eager, the worst.

[Glaucon] Quite true, he replied.

[Socrates] And will our pupils, when they hear this, refuse to take their turn at the toils of State, when they are allowed to spend the greater part of their time with one another in the heavenly light?

[Glaucon] Impossible, he answered; for they are just men, and the commands which we impose upon them are just; there can be no doubt that every one of them will take office as a stern necessity, and not after the fashion of our present rulers of State.

The thing about lust for power, like lust for money, it is never satisfied.

Not true. Solomon changed after a vision and Paul became a Christian after killing many Christians after a vision.

Russian tsar 'lived secretly as monk in Siberia' for decades after history books say he died

http://siberiantimes.com/other/others/n ... ooks-said/

From what I’ve read I think one of my ancestors may have helped him. But the point of all this is that sometimes people change because for one reason or another their soul has turned towards the light.

[Fooloso4]

Nick _A:

First of all philosophers do voluntarily return to the cave as I've highlighted.

Republic 519e:

"My friend, you have again forgotten, " I said, "that it's not the
concern of law that any one class in the city fare exceptionally well, but
it contrives to bring this about in the city as a whole, harmonizing the
citizens by persuasion and compulsion, making them share with one
a another the benefit that each is able to bring to the commonwealth.
And it produces such men in the city not in order to let them
turn whichever way each wants, but in order that it may use them in
binding the city together."

There has been a lot written about this. If you are interested you can pursue it, it is off topic (but of course ever bringing up Plato was off topic).

Second I was writing about alpha males and not philosophers.

It is the philosopher who returns to the cave, not alpha males. What is the point of bringing Plato’s cave into it?

Only alpha males and females can become philosophers …

Plato is quite specific about what it takes to be a philosopher and being an alpha male or female is not on the list. The philosophers are not those with dominant personalities. Compare Thrasymachus (from the first book of the Republic) and Socrates.

Not true. Solomon changed after a vision and Paul became a Christian after killing many Christians after a vision.

We are talking about Donald Trump, not Jesus, not the philosopher-king, not Solomon, and not Paul. Are you suggesting that Trump has had or will have a conversion vision?

But the point of all this is that sometimes people change because for one reason or another their soul has turned towards the light.

Well then there is hope for Trump and hope for us. In the meantime he is as I have described him. His soul has always been and will until then remain turned toward money and power and privilege.

[Gertie]

The 'alpha male' messiah appeal of Trump looks to me like a desire of some members of a group which has been used to feeling respected for who they are, the privileges, duties and expectations which come from it, looking for someone to be their archetypal champion to return them to those good ol days. They want a Big Strong Daddy who is bigger and stronger than your Daddy, to put people back in their proper place and make it all better.

But the world has changed, it's complicated, uncertain, and not everybody was happy with the old ways.

Trump can at best be a short term fix for those people. And it's potentially disastrous to put your faith in one person, regardless of policy or proven ability, especially one like Trump. And what about the people he doesn't give a toss about?

To me it's just plain childish, bonkers, and scary.

[Nick_A]

Fooloso4 wwrote:

It is the philosopher who returns to the cave, not alpha males. What is the point of bringing Plato’s cave into it?

Belindi had previously written: “Nick, your idea of what is an alpha male is a wrong idea.A human alpha male serves others even if by so doing he sacrifices himself, and thatis what demonstrates strength.”

I believe she had confused the philosophy king with the alpha male.

Plato is quite specific about what it takes to be a philosopher and being an alpha male or female is not on the list. The philosophers are not those with dominant personalities. Compare Thrasymachus (from the first book of the Republic) and Socrates.

A philosopher doesn’t sit in schools hiding behind ideas and give lectures. A real philosopher king lives their philosophy. This is universally repulsive since the Great Beast worships the lie. The philosopher in the Platonic sense must be able to adopt whatever personality is necessary for the time. Only a person unafraid who has will and the ability to exercise it is capable of such inner freedom. The follower is incapable of being an alpha male.

We are talking about Donald Trump, not Jesus, not the philosopher-king, not Solomon, and not Paul. Are you suggesting that Trump has had or will have a conversion vision?

No, I am asserting that a person can come to the conclusion that there is more to life than making money and a acquire a more human perspective from this realization.

Back on 10/30 I submitted a thread on General philosophy called the Need for Objective Truth. It got lost in the shuffle and finally was released by moderation a few days ago. Naturally it is far down on the board so no one replied and I didn’t bother with it. But the general idea is that our lives are lived by subjective truths and habits which support them. Sometimes a person feels something more real which touches a genuine need for a greater human perspective and their life changes. This seems odd to you since you are hell bent on defending the progressive philosophy. At some point you may question this habit and become open to something else. Yes it can happen.

-- Updated Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:09 pm to add the following --

The 'alpha male' messiah appeal of Trump looks to me like a desire of some members of a group which has been used to feeling respected for who they are, the privileges, duties and expectations which come from it, looking for someone to be their archetypal champion to return them to those good ol days. They want a Big Strong Daddy who is bigger and stronger than your Daddy, to put people back in their proper place and make it all better.

But the world has changed, it's complicated, uncertain, and not everybody was happy with the old ways.

Trump can at best be a short term fix for those people. And it's potentially disastrous to put your faith in one person, regardless of policy or proven ability, especially one like Trump. And what about the people he doesn't give a toss about?

To me it's just plain childish, bonkers, and scary.

Gertie, it isn't a matter of putting faith in one person but if a person values the principles and values America was founded upon. Other countries have a culture. They are sustained by their unique culture. Italians are Italian, the French are French and so on. America is unique because it was built and is sustained by ideas. They are intentionally being ignored by the elites and forgotten by society in favor of arguing over the merits of Kim Kardashians behind. When the ideas are lost the country is lost. Trump is speaking of making America Great Again. This requires remembering what has been forgotten including the spiritual value of working with ones hands and the concept of blind justice. People resonate with it. For America to survive the ideas which serve to acquire a human perspective capable of freedom need to be remembered.

[Fooloso4]

Nick_A:

I believe she had confused the philosophy king with the alpha male.

This makes even less sense. I see no reason why you attempt to drag Plato into the discussion. It has no relevance.

A philosopher doesn’t sit in schools hiding behind ideas and give lectures. A real philosopher king lives their philosophy.

And what does this have to do with the topic under discussion? If you want to talk about Plato start a thread. If you want to talk about what a philosopher does start a thread. If you want to disparage education start a thread.

No, I am asserting that a person can come to the conclusion that there is more to life than making money and a acquire a more human perspective from this realization.

But Trump has not come to that conclusion has he? A divine vision is not a conclusion. What is the point?

Back on 10/30 I submitted a thread on General philosophy called the Need for Objective Truth.

Maybe no one is interested. You have said the same thing over and over in every thread no matter what the topic and here you are doing it again. Why are you using this thread to advertise?

[Nick_A]

Fooloso4 wrote:

And what does this have to do with the topic under discussion? If you want to talk about Plato start a thread. If you want to talk about what a philosopher does start a thread. If you want to disparage education start a thread.

Here is the topic: “This morning feels to British me like waking up on Brexit morning to that almost incredible news. It's more dangerous world now. Here is more power for dictator Putin now. One consolation is that those who voted for Mr Trump and his boasted policies are now obviously in full view, and it's best to see trends more clearly. Even if Mr Trump had disappeared, his dissaffected and badly educated supporters would still live on as before albeit partially hidden.”

So does this mean that voters in America consist primarily of badly educated whites who voted for Trump and brainwashed blacks and other minorities who voted for Hillary? If this is true then Plato was right and we are living in the darkness of Plato’s cave. What could be more relevant to the discussion?

[Belindi]

Nick_A wrote:

This is really an interesting idea, It is also a biblical idea.

Matthew 4: 8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”
11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.


As the ultimate alpha male Jesus could have dominated and acquired the power to rule the world but he knew that true human meaning and purpose was not acquired by ruling the world but by healing it through connecting the higher with the lower and establishing a conscious connection making it possible.

Of course Donald Trump is no Jesus Christ but I do believe that his lust for power ha been satisfied and knows his name will really go down in history if he helps America to remember what it is losing and inspires the good that will come from this recollection.

Jesus as our ultimate alpha male raises women and other powerless persons to the same status as fully -participating men. The idea is not mine , which I thought would have been obvious to anyone who has read the Gospels. Do you think that Donald Trump is the sort of messiah who will raise the powerless to the same status as those who are of northern European ancestry, rich, educated, healthy, able-bodied, and heterosexual?

If you think so, Nick, then I think that you must be a well-meaning person who has been duped by Trump's flatteries. It would be super if Mr Trump were a reformed character who has become a socialist messiah,but he isn't. What you see as Alpha Male strength is fear of and blustering against the downtrodden and the foreigners who the fearful rich think will rise up against them and deprive them of some of their wealth.

Nick, the old days are gone, when education counted for little against the strong man's ability to achieve heavy manual work. America's colonisation by Europeans was built on those male muscular strengths, but now those days have gone and all boys need to want to be educated. The alpha male for today is not a muscle man but is likely to be a woman , as women have not been spoiled by macho posturing such as is Mr |Trump's forte. Yes, I know that many women voted for Trump and it's easy to see that many women too have swallowed the bait of the macho messiah.