The Source Of Human Problems
- Ormond
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The Source Of Human Problems
The first thing we can observe is that the ills that plaque us have been with humanity throughout our history. The universality of the human condition seems a very important clue, as it suggests that the suffering we hope to escape arises from something more fundamental than culture and philosophy, which vary widely from one time and place to another.
If incorrect ideas were the source of our ills, then surely by now some group of humans would have come upon the correct set of ideas and would be living in an earthly paradise, right? What we see instead are many groups claiming to have found the correct set of ideas, while living in as much conflict as everybody else.
The universality of the human condition suggests that the source of our problems lies not in culture and philosophy, not in ways that we differ from one another as individuals and cultures, indeed not anywhere within the content of thought.
Such an inconvenient insight can be a hard pill for philosophers to swallow, but swallow we must if we are to follow the trail of a reasoned investigation where ever it may lead, which is of course what philosophers are supposed to do.
Once we have ruled out the widely varying contents of thought as the source of our universal problems, what remains as a suspect is the nature of thought itself, that which all humans everywhere are made of psychologically. The nature of thought itself is a universal factor which can explain a universal condition, the existence of human conflict on both the personal and social levels in all times and places in human history.
For our Judeo-Christian friends, it's perhaps helpful to note here that Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden not for adopting some particular bad philosophy, but for an act far more fundamental, eating the apple of knowledge.
The above trail of reasoning suggests that those serious about reaching for a world different than the one we have now should be shifting their focus away from the study of content of thought (that which divides us), and towards a deeper understanding of the nature of thought itself (that which we all have in common).
1) All humans are made of thought psychologically.
2) All thought operates by a process of division. As example, language is a primary expression of thought, the noun is a fundamental building block of language, and the function of nouns is to conceptually divide reality in to parts.
3) Thus, all humans experience reality as being divided between “me” (very very small) and “everything else” (very very big) a perspective which generates fear, which in turn is the source of most human problems on both the personal and social levels.
We attempt to ease the pain of this fundamentally divisive existential perspective by adopting comforting beliefs, whether religious or secular, but then our beliefs collide with the beliefs of others and even more fuel is added to the furnace of human conflict.
Consider the history of Christianity, or any other philosophy. In the case of Christianity, a collection of ideas specifically about bringing people together in love has divided in to a thousand warring factions, because all ideas are made of thought, all thought operates by division, and all division generates conflict. The fact that all philosophies and ideologies inevitably sub-divide in to competing internal factions points to the inherently divisive nature of thought, that which all ideas are made of.
It's not necessary, or probably even possible, for us to give up our most deeply held beliefs. We can however take a closer look at what all beliefs are made of, and make a sober assessment of the inevitable price tag involved in any collection of ideas. Such an process of inquiry can help shift our focus away from what divides us, and towards what we all have in common, which is at least a small step forward towards a different and more positive human experience.
-- Updated December 4th, 2016, 9:05 am to add the following --
A couple of replies to this thread have mysteriously vanished. I did read them, and didn't see a reason why they would be removed by the mods. Technical problems perhaps? In any case, thanks for replying, sorry I can't do the same.
- Roel
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Re: The Source Of Human Problems
- Burning ghost
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- Felix
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Re: The Source Of Human Problems
Actually, the "fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil," i.e., polarized thinking, just as you said.Ormond: For our Judeo-Christian friends, it's perhaps helpful to note here that Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden not for adopting some particular bad philosophy, but for an act far more fundamental, eating the apple of knowledge.
I wouldn't say it operates by it, if that were true, the situation would be hopeless. The problems arise when the label becomes mistaken for what has been labeled. Then rather than see things as they are, untainted, they are seen "through a glass darkly," through the polarized filter of thought.All thought operates by a process of division.
- Roel
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Re: The Source Of Human Problems
Then I would see it in the moderators log. It is some technical issue or only admins can see the changes.Felix wrote:Perhaps posts made here are moderated differently....
Actually, the "fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil," i.e., polarized thinking, just as you said.Ormond: For our Judeo-Christian friends, it's perhaps helpful to note here that Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden not for adopting some particular bad philosophy, but for an act far more fundamental, eating the apple of knowledge.
I wouldn't say it operates by it, if that were true, the situation would be hopeless. The problems arise when the label becomes mistaken for what has been labeled. Then rather than see things as they are, untainted, they are seen "through a glass darkly," through the polarized filter of thought.All thought operates by a process of division.
- Ormond
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Re: The Source Of Human Problems
Thanks Roel. Yes, definitely technical issue then, as I'm completely sure the posts were there yesterday. No biggie, just thought someone might want to know.Roel wrote:I looked into the moderator log. It isn't a moderator action, I guess it's a technical issue Ormond.
- Ormond
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Re: The Source Of Human Problems
Ormond wrote:All thought operates by a process of division.
That's a good way to put it.Felix wrote:I wouldn't say it operates by it, if that were true, the situation would be hopeless. The problems arise when the label becomes mistaken for what has been labeled. Then rather than see things as they are, untainted, they are seen "through a glass darkly," through the polarized filter of thought.
It's as if we're wearing sunglasses and so no matter where we look everything looks tinted. When we're wearing "thought glasses" everything looks divided. This distortion is built-in to language so it's pretty much impossible to even discuss these subjects without re-introducing it.
I think the situation is hopeless in the sense of finding a permanent solution to suffering. But it's not hopeless in that we can indeed find more effective ways of managing suffering. Our relationship with psychic hunger is like our relationship with physical hunger. There is nothing we can eat that will permanently end the need for eating. Well, except arsenic.
So much of philosophy and religion attempts to fix the problem of suffering by editing the content of thought. It seems to me that if this were possible, we'd have solved suffering long ago, if only by a process of random experimentation. If this is true, then a great many of the philosophical debates that have long consumed us would seem to be largely pointless, except perhaps for their entertainment value.
On the other hand, if suffering is built-in to thought itself, then it's really a mechanical problem which can be addressed by mechanical means. If to think is to suffer, then suffering can be managed by taking a break from thinking.
Typically when we suffer we try to analyze it, figure it out, as I am doing here. If thought itself is the source of suffering, then the more we try to analyze the suffering, the more we may be feeding it. At the least, this seems a reasonable theory worth exploring.
- Episode24
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Re: The Source Of Human Problems
I disagree. An idea can cause suffering, such as the idea I'm wasting time by watching Netflix on Saturday when I could be doing something productive to earn money in order to get myself out of debt faster. When the thought crosses my mind while I'm watching Netflix, I suffer. As long as I believe I am wasting time, I feel guilty.Ormond wrote:This post offers a theory about the source of human problems. The thesis is that human suffering does not arise from the content of thought (ideas, concepts, philosophies etc) and thus can not be fixed at that level.
The concept of free will can cause suffering, too. For someone, let's say a physicist who lives in the bible belt believes in free will and that people are responsible for their actions. On the other hand, many of the people he encounters in his city are Christian and believe God is controlling everything in reality. The physicist often finds it hard to cope with how many people around him do not believe in free will. He suffers because he feels disconnected from many people. It's a problem.
Therefore, I don't see the truth in your theory about the source of human problems.
In addition, human suffering occurs as a consequence of not only thinking, as you suggest, but also environmental circumstances. If I lose my house to a wildfire, I'm suffering because of my misfortune and bad circumstances. It is not a concept, nor an idea, nor a philosophy that plagues me. My loss has nothing to do with the nature of thought, either.
- Felix
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Re: The Source Of Human Problems
Episode24: I disagree. An idea can cause suffering, such as the idea I'm wasting time by watching Netflix on Saturday when I could be doing something productive to earn money in order to get myself out of debt faster. When the thought crosses my mind while I'm watching Netflix, I suffer. As long as I believe I am wasting time, I feel guilty.
You've raised an important distinction re: thought, which is that there are two types of thought: (1) abstract thought, the sort of thinking of which Ormond spoke, and (2) practical or factual thought, which corresponds directly to a felt emotion (e.g., fear or guilt), or a practical idea or actual event (e.g., how to fix something or a car accident you had).
Abstract thoughts have relative subjective meaning and their truth value is debatable, whereas practical thoughts have objective meaning and they are either true or false, e.g., I am feeling such and such emotion, this or that construction technique is effective, etc. In the Netflix example you gave, your thoughts had a rational basis; they reflected your feeling (of guilt).
Your physicist example supports Ormond's premise; the physicist's attachment to the abstract concept of free will is causing him to feel alienated from those who don't share that belief.
- Ormond
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Re: The Source Of Human Problems
You aren't suffering from environmental circumstances in that example, but from your relationship with those environmental circumstances. The proof of this is that someone else could have a completely different reaction, they might be happy to lose that house so they can start a new chapter of their life etc.In addition, human suffering occurs as a consequence of not only thinking, as you suggest, but also environmental circumstances.
If human suffering arose at the level of the content of thought, ie. bad ideas, then some people somewhere at some time would have learned to dump the bad ideas and would be living in bliss. But what we see instead is that nobody nowhere at no time is living in bliss, except perhaps a handful of people too rare to be relevant.
The universality of human suffering provides the evidence that suffering arises not from the content of thought (varies widely) but from thought itself (present in all humans).
- Felix
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Re: The Source Of Human Problems
Returning to the Genesis story, it states that Adam and Eve possessed language before they "ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." They named the flora and fauna in the Garden before partaking of the fruit, which suggests they had named the plants and animals but not attributed good/evil values to them. Their psychological perspective on Life changed after eating the "fruit" and they were evicted from paradise. What is this fruit?
- Ormond
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Re: The Source Of Human Problems
I'm not blaming, just explaining thought, and it's relationship to suffering.Felix wrote:Ormond, you may be going too far.... Don't shoot the messenger, which in this case is thought.
The psychological dependence arises from the nature of thought too. It doesn't spring in to existence magically on it's own.Is it thought that is the problem or is it our psychological dependence on it?
Thought operates by division. Thus, we experience a division between "me" and "everything else". "Me" is very small, which gives rise to fear. We try to wallpaper over the fear with more thought, which creates a self reinforcing feedback loop. The more we think the more we suffer, so we think some more, leading to more suffering, more thinking etc.
So we will try to analyze this and figure it out, just as I'm doing above. One theory will lead to another to another to another and round and round and round we'll go, as we've been doing since the story was written 3,000 years ago. And after 3,000 more years of this analysis we'll wind up right where we already are, because we're still trying to find the answer in the content of thought.Returning to the Genesis story, it states that Adam and Eve possessed language before they "ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." They named the flora and fauna in the Garden before partaking of the fruit, which suggests they had named the plants and animals but not attributed good/evil values to them. Their psychological perspective on Life changed after eating the "fruit" and they were evicted from paradise. What is this fruit?
If we instead see that suffering arises from thought itself, the problem of suffering becomes dramatically simpler.
To stop suffering...
Stop thinking.
Five words.
Instead of being an infinitely complex sophisticated issue requiring an endless parade of experts, it becomes a simple mechanical issue. If we're about to barf from too much Christmas dinner, stop eating. If we're going insane from consuming too many colliding thoughts, stop thinking.
Philosophers, gurus, psychologists etc will probably hate this because it puts them out of business. Oh well...
- Felix
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Re: The Source Of Human Problems
The division exists with or without thought. Not thinking about food will not eliminate my physical need for it.Thought operates by division. Thus, we experience a division between "me" and "everything else".
And what is "thinking"? Using language? Identifying what I sense?
- Episode24
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Re: The Source Of Human Problems
Is that so? If a wildfire destroyed my home, swallowing all of my photo albums which I compiled over decades, my antique furniture, my artwork and my hard-earned electronics, then you're saying there's a chance I might be happy about it as long as I have a positive relationship with my circumstances. My circumstances don't have to bother me as long as I react well and consider this to be a fresh start to life.Ormond wrote:You aren't suffering from environmental circumstances in that example, but from your relationship with those environmental circumstances. The proof of this is that someone else could have a completely different reaction, they might be happy to lose that house so they can start a new chapter of their life etc.
I don't think so. Not only do I not think so, but I know it's not so. What was lost is irreplaceable and my relationship to my possessions isn't fickle; my bond with my home is part of who I am. If my relationship to my home changed, I wouldn't be who I am. I don't suffer because of my personality or my thinking, I suffer because of the environment acting on me.
You talk about a person's relationship to things in the environment as if it were something transformable, like a tangible, alterable object. So why don't you change your relationship with thinking?
You seem to be suffering from a bad idea about the thought process.Ormond wrote: If human suffering arose at the level of the content of thought, ie. bad ideas, then some people somewhere at some time would have learned to dump the bad ideas and would be living in bliss. But what we see instead is that nobody nowhere at no time is living in bliss, except perhaps a handful of people too rare to be relevant.
I actually know how to live in bliss. I can tell you if you want to know.
It has a lot to do with abstract thought, as Felix puts it.
And it takes a lot of
dumping
A lot of dumping of ideas.
- TSBU
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Re: The Source Of Human Problems
Problems are seen like problems, because we think that they probably have a solution. If something will never have a solution, that's not a problem, that just "is" (Nobody sees as a problem that people grow and the clothes you use when you were a child are useless for you now, and, if they start seeing it as a problem, then they start searching for a solution).
What is usually called "humanity problems", for most of humans, are, in the end, other humans. The way they are, the way they born. Talking about "humanity problems" is so, seen as a desire to "fight other people", after all, as I said, if something is a problem, it can be solved, so you must change your actions... so you are doing something wrong, like you said (so, humanity is doing something wrong, and people do what they do cause they are what they are).
Some "clear" things for some people:
Some people born being stupid, and they can't do simple jobs without making accidents, and all problems are because of accidents, even some enormous lies, like religion, or wars, are possible only because some people are stupid and they will never learn or pay attention.
Some people born being stupid, and they can't do their job and let other people do their job, they always want to get more greedy attention, they think they are better than the rest, and that's the reason for wars, they can't accept the rules that make society possible, some people are stupid and they will never learn or pay attention.
That are nearly "absolute truths" in many heads, and they seem to be oposite. It's all the same, I mean, think in any subject, and you'll find people in both sides. Just chek this forum XD or any other forum, even about fundamental reality, like "causality". And, maaany people say that, "humanity problems", and the funny thing is that some of them still think that they see the same as that.
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