What will happen to this site with no administrators?
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What will happen to this site with no administrators?
In a statement released very recently, Greta announced that she is soon going to subside or cease (not yet determined) her involvement in the site's administration. Scott is not responsive to her enquiries.
What do YOU think will happen to this site when the last moderator leaves?
In my opinion the site will continue for a while in its civility, due to the inertia of the site's moral momentum. After that, resistance will crop up, and eventually the site will degrade to the level of its competition: ad hominem attacks, flaring flaming wars, and insults will become more and more rampant.
I will weep for this site's old success.
- wanabe
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Re: What will happen to this site with no administrators?
It seems that the decentralized model has been successful for this site. I had to approve this post, as a matter of fact, before I could reply.
This site has been around for some time and has not degraded into thoughtless banter like many other places on "The Web." If Greta leaves someone will fill that space.
There will pretty much never be a time when all moderators leave. Unless Scott decides to just not keep the servers up. Or unless catastrophe strikes the world.
Any site with no moderators, regular users generally police themselves, or just about everyone leaves for "greener pastures." After most everyone leaves then regular users trickle back and new mods form and slowly things evolve and improve from there.
This site is still quietly successful. I believe part of that success is due to most people actually being turned off by the word "philosophy." Which speaks volumes for society at large, and the generally responsible community here.
Lots of other things worth weeping for, a website is not one of them.
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Re: What will happen to this site with no administrators?
wanabe wrote:There are lots of mods at this forum. I'm one of them. The following is just my personal opinion.
It seems that the decentralized model has been successful for this site. I had to approve this post, as a matter of fact, before I could reply.
This site has been around for some time and has not degraded into thoughtless banter like many other places on "The Web." If Greta leaves someone will fill that space.
There will pretty much never be a time when all moderators leave. Unless Scott decides to just not keep the servers up. Or unless catastrophe strikes the world.
Any site with no moderators, regular users generally police themselves, or just about everyone leaves for "greener pastures." After most everyone leaves then regular users trickle back and new mods form and slowly things evolve and improve from there.
This site is still quietly successful. I believe part of that success is due to most people actually being turned off by the word "philosophy." Which speaks volumes for society at large, and the generally responsible community here.
Lots of other things worth weeping for, a website is not one of them.
Without objective moderation a site is limited to selective moderation. Then it will be taken over by dominant cliques with the aim of destroying what they and selective moderators do not understand. A philosophy site when it pursues this path no longer contains philosophy but becomes advocates for blind hatred of ideas.
- Sy Borg
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Re: What will happen to this site with no administrators?
So I allegedly hate everything?
Nick claims this ain't philosophy
And I am officiating monstrously,
Not enough respect for his much-repeated theology
- and I even support those who do sodomy!
Yes, there are many mods lying in the wings
But they rarely do a single thing.
So there is no penalty here for apostasy
Neither here nor in a healthy democracy.
My moderation done without apology,
And not slanted to any ideology.
A focus on quality.
Bonhomie.
Diversity.
And since the work here's almost a monopoly
Idle complaints like Nick's I treat as light comedy.
- wanabe
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Re: What will happen to this site with no administrators?
You're absolutely right. Unless a large collective of responsible individuals shares the moderation labor, things can't even begin to resemble objectivity.
As a matter of business. Currently, do you think a certain group of moderators or individual moderator is advocating blind hatred of ideas and using their moderator power to enhance the impact of that hatred? If so, can you provide direct material evidence of this? This personally concerns me.
If it's any consolation, there are a few actions that can be executed by you and others with similar concerns. Continue to contribute to these forums by posting responsibly. Moderating in the near future and broadening the moderator perspective. Perhaps starting your own forum or even publishing as a back up. Ultimately any given philosophy website is trivial. What matters in the end is that we all continue learning. That does not absolutely require this or any website.
I don't know all the mods well at this point. I know Scott well, the original admin, as far as internet relationships go. He could be a cyborg for all I know. In my experience, both personally and witnessed, he's reasonable, tolerant and transparent.
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Re: What will happen to this site with no administrators?
I wasn't referring to this site. My most recent experience with partially supported cliques promoting blind denial and as a result blind hatred was with a site called Philosophy Now. That is why I left it. A philosophy site IMO should reflect the concept of the Socratic dialogue. Not enough want it. An influential minority prefer to seek and destroy in the attempt to bolster their prestige. Good moderation IMO promotes the Socratic dialogue on boards advocating philosophy.wanabe wrote:Nick_A,
You're absolutely right. Unless a large collective of responsible individuals shares the moderation labor, things can't even begin to resemble objectivity.
As a matter of business. Currently, do you think a certain group of moderators or individual moderator is advocating blind hatred of ideas and using their moderator power to enhance the impact of that hatred? If so, can you provide direct material evidence of this? This personally concerns me.
If it's any consolation, there are a few actions that can be executed by you and others with similar concerns. Continue to contribute to these forums by posting responsibly. Moderating in the near future and broadening the moderator perspective. Perhaps starting your own forum or even publishing as a back up. Ultimately any given philosophy website is trivial. What matters in the end is that we all continue learning. That does not absolutely require this or any website.
I don't know all the mods well at this point. I know Scott well, the original admin, as far as internet relationships go. He could be a cyborg for all I know. In my experience, both personally and witnessed, he's reasonable, tolerant and transparent.
I'll give you an example. I began a thread on music of a special type. the clique quickly got a hold of it making it useless. I asked the mod to remove it. The mod locked it as a symbol that the clique had won. If the mod would have removed the thread in respect to my efforts and in respect for the topic it would have been the objective thing to do. Locking it just means the effort to destroy had won. Let the enemy witness the corpses. Sick stuff.
The hardest concept to moderate IMO is religious philosophy. Iife's experiences for atheists have been such that blindly seeking and destroying religious concepts as opposed to understanding them has become a virtual cause célèbre. They feel justified in destruction. An unfortunate part of human nature.
- Sy Borg
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Re: What will happen to this site with no administrators?
Wanabe, please leave me to do this aspect of moderating. You are out of your depth and I don't need lazy good-for-nothing so-called "moderators" with almost zero work output trying to undermine me.wanabe wrote:Nick_A,
You're absolutely right. Unless a large collective of responsible individuals shares the moderation labor, things can't even begin to resemble objectivity.
You approved ten posts the other day (with some mistakes) - and that's after I forgot that you were even a mod, so absent you have been from the moderator logs. Ten posts out of hundreds of approved posts by me this year. Never mind my dealing with complaints about other members and reports, edits and moderating errant members. Yet you judge my "professionalism" in this unpaid labour of love?
I don't expect thanks. I don't expect credit. However, I DO expect at least some help from my mod team, and certainly not for my shiftless "helpers" to make my work even harder. The most important aspect of "professionalism" is actually doing work. Try it. You might even like it.
Really? Then why make such a bitter complaint here? There was only ever going to be one target since I have done well over 90% of the moderating this year. Usually I'm stuck doing closer to 70-80%, but that doesn't stop some of my "helpers" from trying to undermine me.Nick_A wrote:I wasn't referring to this site.
That other forum has nothing to do with this one. It operates with minimum moderation and is thus a tougher place to be. I had a similar problem where a wildly abusive member was basically using the forum to promote his political ideas. I got no satisfaction and the moderating ended up favouring the wrongdoer. Why? It was not because of the mods' beliefs - they just did what they thought was quickest, cleanest and easiest.Nick_A wrote:I began a thread on music of a special type. the clique quickly got a hold of it making it useless. I asked the mod to remove it. The mod locked it as a symbol that the clique had won. If the mod would have removed the thread in respect to my efforts and in respect for the topic it would have been the objective thing to do. Locking it just means the effort to destroy had won. Let the enemy witness the corpses.
Meanwhile, you did get to have your religious music thread here, from memory, and all went well. In fact, I think we two chatted pleasantly for a while on that very thread.
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Re: What will happen to this site with no administrators?
- Sy Borg
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Re: What will happen to this site with no administrators?
Whatever, since I'm doing almost all the work at the forum and usually moderate gently I see no valid grounds for others (who do nothing) to criticise. I do see valid grounds for responsible people without any agenda or hard ideology to volunteer to help. In the last round of recruitment about a dozen bright-eyed forum newbs, stimulated by their early forum interactions, volunteered to moderate. Then, as must happen on these forums, they ran into stern opposition to whatever ideas they especially cherished. Bruised by the encounters, the forum lost its gloss and they left.
Maybe they expected extra politeness or respect because they are a mod? Hardly! On a philosophy forum you have numerous fiercely independent thinkers who would not for a moment consider appealing to authority. Logical fallacy #1. Authority in philosophy is akin to a waved rag to a bull :)
Forums can help us practice being less precious, insecure and rigid in our positions, and to articulate thoughts ever more clearly and dispassionately. That's what it did for me, anyway. So why the retreats? In some cases it seemed that the fleeing fledgling mods saw the forum as a vehicle of influence, where their big ideas could be aired and tested. Yet, when people showed no interest in their ideas they left, perhaps figuring there is no point. Not mod material. Live and learn.
What people forget is that almost every single person you will interact with on these forums is actually a "good person", someone who just wants to lead a good life, wanting the best for their families and friends, for humanity and the world in general. Just that we have different ideas as to how to get there.
I made that very common error of chronic distrust online for years until the penny dropped. Everyone has a unique perspective and understands some things in life that no one else does; so they all have something worthwhile to add to humanity's exponentially growing store of ideas, even if it's just regurgitation/reinforcement of others' ideas. If a person's post seems crazed or wicked, don't jump to the very most uncharitable interpretation. Chances are that if you sincerely try to understand what the "crazy" person is saying with the assumption that they ultimately mean well, then your interpretations of their meaning is more likely to be correct. Consider: what are they really trying to get across? What idea do they most want acknowledged and explored?
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Re: What will happen to this site with no administrators?
You know the nastiness that always takes place on 9name removed] with the topic of abortion. There is no exchange taking place because there is no attempt to understand the other side or respect the person on the other side. Just kill or be killed. This isn’t either natural or necessary but it feels good.
Jacob Needleman describes an alternative. People may still disagree but at least they lose the urge to kill. Would a thread ever be possible where the person supporting abortion describes the opposing side to their satisfaction? At the same time the person against abortion would describe the opposing beliefs to their satisfaction as Prof. Needleman describes. I know it would never happen on Philosophy Now. The joy of attack at all costs is of primary importance and anything else would be considered disruptive. Without proper moderation this site would suffer the same fate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSOs4ti0sm0
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Re: What will happen to this site with no administrators?
It's like school. One student pinches another but the victim who complains gets in bother. In that particular thread, you were doing the "pinching" by tactlessly and uncompromisingly demanding control over women's bodies once they are impregnated, and then you judged your "victims" for overreacting. In that case you were the main provocateur, refusing to understand how women might find men demanding control over their bodies to be threatening.
The rights of a piece of nerveless protoplasm should be that of other kinds of nerveless protoplasm, not of adult women.
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Re: What will happen to this site with no administrators?
You missed the point. In respect to Prof. Needleman's experiment, would I be able to explain your opinion on abortion with the logic and emotion that would satisfy you? Would you be able to explain my opinion on abortion in a way that communicates the logic and emotion of my opinion? Do you see how far we are from it? People are like this which is why understanding is impossible and how easily it leads to hostility?Greta wrote:Nick, if you don't wish to deal with the rough and tumble, don't presume that you have the right to control another person's body. It's one thing to be inflamed, another to be inflammatory.
It's like school. One student pinches another but the victim who complains gets in bother. In that particular thread, you were doing the "pinching" by tactlessly and uncompromisingly demanding control over women's bodies once they are impregnated, and then you judged your "victims" for overreacting. In that case you were the main provocateur, refusing to understand how women might find men demanding control over their bodies to be threatening.
The rights of a piece of nerveless protoplasm should be that of other kinds of nerveless protoplasm, not of adult women.
- Sy Borg
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Re: What will happen to this site with no administrators?
Meanwhile, this year 1081 moderation actions have been performed so far.
788 have of these were done by me and 141 were done by the other Admin.
Aside from Scott doing a few things, the remaining 148 actions were performed by a team of one actual moderator who did 88 of those actions, and another ten faux-moderators who managed to scratch out the remaining 61 actions between them. Maybe it's time to review mod status of the "team"?
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Re: What will happen to this site with no administrators?
You explain well one reason why people do not understand one another. For example you actually think you understand my attitude towards abortion. You don't. This is what makes Prof. Needleman's experiment so interesting. it gives the young the experience of their ignorance. Of course in these tiimes whern spirit killing is considered a noble goal, understanding is unimportant. The institutions will tell you what to think. Yet some lucky ones will experience there is far more to understaning then what is politically correct. That is why philosophy sites have degraded into vehicles for shouting down others. Understanding has become secondary to suppression and sadly some mods serve to support these efforts on Philosophy Now.Greta wrote:Yes, but when the opinions with which you disagree are ones you have heard repeated endlessly for decades, why bother with their repetition? Life's too short IMO. This forum is not work - it should be stimulating and a joy, not a matter of ploughing through old stuff. Besides, there is no possibility of compromise or mutual understanding when one party subscribes to a religious dogma. All of the giving must be done by one side and, again, life's too short to waste on that.
Meanwhile, this year 1081 moderation actions have been performed so far.
788 have of these were done by me and 141 were done by the other Admin.
Aside from Scott doing a few things, the remaining 148 actions were performed by a team of one actual moderator who did 88 of those actions, and another ten faux-moderators who managed to scratch out the remaining 61 actions between them. Maybe it's time to review mod status of the "team"?
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Re: What will happen to this site with no administrators?
1. To point at what Greta and Nick AGREE on, which is the imminent danger of possible and potential deterioration of the site to shouting matches, cliques and rouge moderation. (Due to lack of any or of proper moderation)
2. To point at what most of us haven't realized, but I was pre-worried about, which is, that Greta is overworked and under-rewarded. She seems to be the last moderator of positive momentum on the site. From what I read, between the lines, is that Scott is not interested any more on its smooth running; the other moderators, which are numerous, do not do anything on the site other than the occasional flare-up of doing some good work.
And I am guilty of making one of the one-time active moderators cross by criticizing his or her response to my plea of needing some authority to decide arguments, which I said at the time had to be the proper application of logic.
I can even explain why mods leave. I have to admit, the site is not very exciting over the long run. (This is a completely independent point from moderator action.) The topics are the same, then they repeat themselves: God, free will, abortion, Big Bang, Solipsism or its opposite, gon control, determinism, and actual daily items from the news. I may have missed some other obvious ones. I sometimes find myself in a creative mood, sometimes don't. The site gets overly boring on the long run, and it's not little surprise, that mods stay away or become inactive after a while.
The only solution I can see is naming some more mods, fresh blood, people keen on doing the job, until they get tired of it, and then getting some more new blood.
The only OTHER solution I see to retain the remaining mods or mod from falling off the wagon, so to speak, is to reward her. I don't know what reward she could need, or we could offer her, as a community. I, speaking for myself, am very grateful that Greta keeps on doing what she does, and she does a good job, in my esteem. And she is relatively fast, and she is studious and diligent.
So we must elect some more mods, or however the mod selection works.
One thing is for sure: this very thread I started was in aim of relieving Greta of too much work, and to shake up the people and let them know that the site is in danger of continuing in the fashion that it was mandated. Much like Greta.
(I am sure she has done some man-dating in her time.)
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