Fancy Playing World Cup Fantasy Football?

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Steve3007
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Re: Fancy Playing World Cup Fantasy Football?

Post by Steve3007 »

Interesting to consider giving over the officiating to machines, given the current news story about a computer that has been trained to make an argument in a debate:

https://www.cnet.com/au/news/an-ibm-com ... mpetition/

I think I might start a topic based on that story as it highlights interesting questions about what exactly it is that people are doing when they set defend a position in a debate.

(An aside: perhaps if machines had been officiating at the England-Tunisia match last night they wouldn't have tolerated Harry Kane being Rugby-tackled to the ground in the penalty area at every opportunity. Where's yer white stick ref?!?)
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Mark1955
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Re: Fancy Playing World Cup Fantasy Football?

Post by Mark1955 »

Steve3007 wrote: June 18th, 2018, 6:21 amRe ref: How about Jesus? Or His dad? I wonder if they count as philosophers.
That I'd suggest is another thread all together. Personally I don't think that forgiveness of sin really fits the role of sports official, arbitrary and vengeful god however......
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Sy Borg
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Re: Fancy Playing World Cup Fantasy Football?

Post by Sy Borg »

Steve3007 wrote: June 19th, 2018, 4:10 am Interesting to consider giving over the officiating to machines, given the current news story about a computer that has been trained to make an argument in a debate:

https://www.cnet.com/au/news/an-ibm-com ... mpetition/
You picked it up :)
Steve3007 wrote:I think I might start a topic based on that story as it highlights interesting questions about what exactly it is that people are doing when they set defend a position in a debate.

(An aside: perhaps if machines had been officiating at the England-Tunisia match last night they wouldn't have tolerated Harry Kane being Rugby-tackled to the ground in the penalty area at every opportunity. Where's yer white stick ref?!?)
Exactly. Australia penalised for a genuine attempt to touch the ball while Tunisia was basically wrestling the Poms - about as bad as Columbia's rough-housing of the Japanese.

It won't only be umpiring but management and politics that will increasingly rely on automation because humans are so dodgy. As the bad decisions mount up - either through "little deals" with friends (aka corruption), ego and empire building, irrational ideologies, and as the media follows in focusing ever more on self interest rather than the public interest - then there will be increased demands for objective decision making.

Program a machine well enough and umpires will not be needed, although I suspect that objective analyses needed to create a baseline of tolerance for fouls in context would expose what is basically nonstop foul play from kick off to full-time. Stay tuned for vociferous protests against automated umpiring by gambling houses :)

It's always a question of how foul is too foul? Ditto politics or any high stakes competition. After all, the ape's advantage was always in being smart enough to fool prey, competitors and predators. So, despite being slower and less armoured, we could always surprise them.

Sleight-of-hand is basically what apes excel at, human or otherwise, and it may well be at least part of the reason why humans obsess so much about morality and rules of engagement generally. Retribution for stealing them apples from Old Farmer God's plantation! Oy! You them thar varmints betta getta yerselves outta this here garden of Eee-dayn before ah tear your arms off and beat ya with the bloody stumps!
Steve3007
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Re: Fancy Playing World Cup Fantasy Football?

Post by Steve3007 »

Greta wrote:...It's always a question of how foul is too foul? Ditto politics or any high stakes competition. After all, the ape's advantage was always in being smart enough to fool prey, competitors and predators. So, despite being slower and less armoured, we could always surprise them.

Sleight-of-hand is basically what apes excel at, human or otherwise, and it may well be at least part of the reason why humans obsess so much about morality and rules of engagement generally...
So maybe when/if we do hand over the responsibility to make the big decisions to the machines we'll find that the system doesn't work because a bit of rule-breaking and dodging and diving and ducking and weaving is essential to human societies. Like when Kirk used to sometimes have to hand the decision making over to Spock and it never quite worked out and Spock was secretly relieved when Kirk took control again. So maybe we should forgive the injustices against our respective national football teams and enjoy the ever-unstable balance between anarchy and order.
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Mark1955
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Re: Fancy Playing World Cup Fantasy Football?

Post by Mark1955 »

You're all deluding yourselves. No major sports system will accept perfect officials, what would the losing coach be able to blame if it wasn't the dodgy ref.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Fancy Playing World Cup Fantasy Football?

Post by Sy Borg »

Steve3007 wrote: June 20th, 2018, 6:46 am
Greta wrote:...It's always a question of how foul is too foul? Ditto politics or any high stakes competition. After all, the ape's advantage was always in being smart enough to fool prey, competitors and predators. So, despite being slower and less armoured, we could always surprise them.

Sleight-of-hand is basically what apes excel at, human or otherwise, and it may well be at least part of the reason why humans obsess so much about morality and rules of engagement generally...
So maybe when/if we do hand over the responsibility to make the big decisions to the machines we'll find that the system doesn't work because a bit of rule-breaking and dodging and diving and ducking and weaving is essential to human societies. Like when Kirk used to sometimes have to hand the decision making over to Spock and it never quite worked out and Spock was secretly relieved when Kirk took control again. So maybe we should forgive the injustices against our respective national football teams and enjoy the ever-unstable balance between anarchy and order.
Good points. Yes, for now we could go with the flow a tad more - at least until we can get the machines working well :)

Machine auditing/reffing will either gradually train us to function as according to our stated values (ie. expose our hypocrisies) or we will become irritated by machine inflexibility and adjust our values (and thus, their operation) to better reflect our actual nature/s rather than the aspirations of the historically influential.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Fancy Playing World Cup Fantasy Football?

Post by Sy Borg »

Mark1955 wrote: June 20th, 2018, 5:05 pmYou're all deluding yourselves. No major sports system will accept perfect officials, what would the losing coach be able to blame if it wasn't the dodgy ref.
1. Injuries
2. The national football association's incompetence
3. Players experiencing personal problems
4. Damnable bad luck.

There are no doubt more ...
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Re: Fancy Playing World Cup Fantasy Football?

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Sunset was blinding players
wind direction strong winds, slippery glass, humid heat, global warming,
Too many attractive naked young women in inviting poses in the audience
mines blowing up underfoot the turf
friendly fire
Referees ought not to discuss judgment calls, as only God can judge
compulsory drug tests took too much blood
opposition poisoned the team to make it play badly
Opposition successfully bribed the team to make it playbadly..
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Steve3007
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Re: Fancy Playing World Cup Fantasy Football?

Post by Steve3007 »

I see the socceroos are holding their own against the Danes.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Fancy Playing World Cup Fantasy Football?

Post by Sy Borg »

Speaking as an Aussie, Steve, in my experience Australians often do hold their own. The problem is, while holding it, they can't help then giving it a bit of a tug.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Fancy Playing World Cup Fantasy Football?

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Mark1955
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Re: Fancy Playing World Cup Fantasy Football?

Post by Mark1955 »

Greta wrote: June 26th, 2018, 7:02 pm Or robot fighting :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIQkZ9flYV8
It would be perhaps an interesting step forward to demand that the robots fought autonomously. As present humans fight using the robots as tools. To program the machine to seek and identify its enemy and then engage it would however I suspect be well beyond the realms of the average Robot Wars 'bot' builder.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Fancy Playing World Cup Fantasy Football?

Post by Sy Borg »

Mark1955 wrote: July 2nd, 2018, 2:10 pm
Greta wrote: June 26th, 2018, 7:02 pm Or robot fighting :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIQkZ9flYV8
It would be perhaps an interesting step forward to demand that the robots fought autonomously. As present humans fight using the robots as tools. To program the machine to seek and identify its enemy and then engage it would however I suspect be well beyond the realms of the average Robot Wars 'bot' builder.
The bot, Chomp, has inbuilt AI, so that it lines its front up with what it sees as the front of the opposing bot and, when it's lined up properly the beater comes down. The bot of lethal when it worked but more often it would spend its time comically thrashing about on the floor due to its height and narrow base. That's why I love robot fighting - the clumsiness and goofiness is cute and comical - at least at a safe distance :)
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LuckyR
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Re: Fancy Playing World Cup Fantasy Football?

Post by LuckyR »

I have to say that I am jumping off of the Hyper Shock team, onto the SawBlaze bandwagon.
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