This is what you said before and it isn't defendable. You are a priori dismissing that God can have morally sufficient reasons for allowing evil, which is a hidden assumption in your argument. There is no logical contradiction between omnibenevolence and omnipotence. You are saying that nobody can know the purposes of suffering, therefore, suffering and the existence of God are not compatible, but that conclusion does not follow from the premises. There is no reason to suppose that because you don't know the reasons for suffering that there is none. I have shown you time and time again that you are wrong. I don't think I can argue this further if there is no progression here. ThanksBelinda wrote:Shrimpmaster, when I referred to the problem of evil and "God" I meant the theists' God. The conversation at that point was about the theists' God and it was in that context that I wrote.
I rebutted the theodicy which you presented, Shrimpmaster:
please note that I wrote that omnibenevolence and omnipotence are incompatible with regard to the fact of the incomprehensibly extreme degree of evil.Post Number:#30 PostTue Aug 26, 2014 2:38 am
But Shrimpmaster, nobody has more than human understanding and judgement. To any human's understanding and judgement omnipotence and omnibenevolence are incompatible. I claim, not that all evil is incompatible with omnibenevolence, but that the degree of evil is incompatible with omnibenevolence. The reason for my conclusion is simple: for instance a two year old dies in agony of spirit or body but has insufficient time to learn from her experience. There is no justice in that, no benevolence.
If there is a superintelligent, personal, interventionist Creator He is failing in his responsibility to His intelligent creatures when He neglects to explain to them why He allows such atrocities to happen.
-- Updated August 27th, 2014, 12:27 pm to add the following --
Plato, I won't respond to the latter of your argument, because I don't follow the logic that is there. If it is necessary for your next post could you please state it in a more concise manner.Platos stepchild wrote:Consider the claim that, if God is omniscient, then we lack free will. The argument is that, since God is "all-knowing", He must therefore know whatever it is we'll end up doing, in any scenario. And, that fore-knowledge (presumably) "locks" us into what's tantamount to being our destinies. But, if God counts on us to fulfill our destinies, and commits Himself, accordingly, then we can, in fact freely choose to thwart Him. That is, if (and this admittedly a "big if") we're able to discern how God has "committed Himself" to whatever His "omniscience" perceives. in other words, we must know that which God believes to be true, about us. But, is that possible?
You know, let's forget about "second-guessing" God. Just imagine all the various, and sundry times humankind has tried to "read" the Divine Mind. It really doesn't matter, though whether someone is actually clever enough to pull-it-off. Maybe, as a fluke someone stumbles into behavior which makes it seem as though he's "outwitted" God. But, regardless of whether this has ever happened, the mere possibility of it happening is quite enough. (And, it is possible, if only because the impossibility of doing so is not logically precluded). God's omniscience is therefore, at the very least vulnerable.
I submit that, if God did design the universe, then He necessarily has definite intentions, for it. "Divine Intentions", however are predicated upon "Divine Omniscience. And, if that "omniscience" is in any way impugned, then God's "intentions" (and therefore His "designs") concerning the universe suddenly become suspect. A flaw, however miniscule repudiates God, inasmuch as His perfection brooks no compromise. The Design Argument therefore collapses due to a hairline fracture in it's logic.
I do take issue with your first sentence, "Consider the claim that, if God is omniscient, then we lack free will". God's knowing something has nothing to do with whether or not you will take said action. For instance, my son really likes Pokemon. If I offer him to go watch a Pokemon movie he would say yes. Does that mean that my knowledge determined him saying yes? Not at all. Now extend this to said "God". This being could have an infinite knowledge that understands every part of all existence (He created it, right?). Would God's knowledge of his creation's inclinations/desires/proclivities thwart those creatures from taking such actions? I don't think so... If you are interested in a Christian teaching on this subject please research Scientia Media