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Re: Publication Forum?

Post Number:#16  Postby Josefina1110 » March 4th, 2017, 9:49 pm

One thing I know is that philosophy is an art. It is not science. Philosophy mostly deals with reasons on issues of life that you either agree or disagree.
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Re: Publication Forum?

Post Number:#17  Postby Ozymandias » March 4th, 2017, 10:25 pm

Josefina1110 wrote:One thing I know is that philosophy is an art. It is not science. Philosophy mostly deals with reasons on issues of life that you either agree or disagree.

Well, science is type of philosophy. Philosophy is the act of deliberately thinking about questions. Science is the method, championed by Francis Bacon, of approaching questions through empiricism and testing, so it's a school of thought within, not separate from, philosophy.

Not to necessarily equate etymology to meaning, but the term "science" is synonymous with the term "natural philosophy", as they used to call it before it became something larger in society than philosophy.
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Re: Publication Forum?

Post Number:#18  Postby Josefina1110 » March 4th, 2017, 10:36 pm

There is a department of education that deals with science. Philosophy is not included in it. Science subjects ends in ...logy. Philosophy is included in Arts. Hence the department is called School of Arts and Sciences.

-- Updated March 4th, 2017, 10:42 pm to add the following --

I mean in College education. So when you graduate you have Bachelor of Science in Biology or Mathematics etc. Then you have Bachelor of Arts in Literature, Music, etc.
I am not really an expert on this classification. I am just generalizing. I may be wrong. But like I say, In College, Philosophy belongs to Arts.
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Re: Publication Forum?

Post Number:#19  Postby -1- » March 5th, 2017, 12:16 pm

Ozymandias wrote:Well it seems to me that, while "everything" is apparently philosophy to me, very little at all is philosophy to you. I say that deliberate and conscious thinking on a given subject is philosophy, how would you define it? Does philosophy have to have a certain level of formality to be philosophy to you? Why can an essay on the merits of love and hate be philosophy, while the Harry Potter series is not, even though it deals with the same question adequately?


Valid question. To me philosophy is to state what you are going to prove, and then prove it with logic.

It turns out that our differences stem from our own differing standards of what definitely is philosophy.

We can proceed from here to disprove the validity of the other's definition.

Deliberate and conscious thinking on a given subject is philosophy

(1) The rise of the price of peas. My wife deliberartely and consciously think of how peas are fifty cents more a pound today than they were yesterday.

The occurrence of (1) which is clearly not philosophy, is sufficiently convincing that not ALL deliberate and conscious thinking on a given subject is philosophy. Philosophy may involve deliberate and conscious thinking about a given subject, but the two are not equivalent. In fact, the overwhelming majority of activities that you describe with your definition are not in the realm of philosophy. (Even if you disregard my definition.) Here I employed one of Wittgenstein's maxims, which says that there are ideas and ideals and concepts that nobody can define, but everyone has at least an inkling (Ahnung) was das ist. What that is. Time, life, god, this sort of thing. Philosophy is definable, but only if you start mit einer Ahnung at first, what it is. Without that Ahnung there could be no further definitions of philosophy (other than mechanical, object oriented or else randomly or arbitrarily.)

So I formally (and not emotionally or antagonistically or belligerently) reject your definition of philosophy, because although it fits the idea of philosophical enquiry, it does not delineate it at all from other forms of pondering.

-- Updated 2017 March 5th, 12:30 pm to add the following --

Fooloso4 wrote:The relationship between philosophy and poetry was an important theme for Plato, but because of methods of inquiry used by anglo-american philosophers interpretation of the Platonic dialogues suffered greatly.


Please don't stop there. You may be referencing knowledge that not all of us have. You can't assume we read exactly the same authors as you have. You need to guide us -- not to the books and titles, but to your findings in few coherent sentences of what it is actually that hurt thedialogues by the interpretation. I am not arguing your point, I just say I don't have the same knowledge, and without substantiation, your statement is -- sorry -- rather empty.

Wittgenstein wrote:-Philosophy ought really to be written only as a form of poetry.


It is in Eastern philosophy that you quote the master and expect the students to fill in the missing links between the endpoints of the proof. In western philosophy the master derives the in-between, and in fact the onus is on the master to prove his or her own point.

You seem to be argumenting in Eastern philosophical style, with a bit of appeal to authority fallacies sprinkled on top. I can't respond to that. To me that style and that artificially restricted content is nothing but a trap. Please make a point, and tell us how YOU interpret it; if you leave it to individual opponents in the debate to interpret every poetic points you make, then you are only inviting mayhem and disparate bits of arguments that have nothing to do with your point.

Just my two cents worth. You do what you like but don't expect replies from me to poetic or unexplained and unsubstantiated rhetoric.

-- Updated 2017 March 5th, 12:33 pm to add the following --

Josefina1110 wrote:One thing I know is that philosophy is an art. It is not science. Philosophy mostly deals with reasons on issues of life that you either agree or disagree.

I think there are times when you must cast aside your disagreement, in light of convincing arguments by your opponent in the argument. That is why I hate to argue with the super-religious, because they straight-out reject proven truths if it does not fit the (obviously superstitiously established) tenets of their faiths.

-- Updated 2017 March 5th, 12:40 pm to add the following --

Josefina1110 wrote:There is a department of education that deals with science. Philosophy is not included in it. Science subjects ends in ...logy. Philosophy is included in Arts. Hence the department is called School of Arts and Sciences.

-- Updated March 4th, 2017, 10:42 pm to add the following --

I mean in College education. So when you graduate you have Bachelor of Science in Biology or Mathematics etc. Then you have Bachelor of Arts in Literature, Music, etc.
I am not really an expert on this classification. I am just generalizing. I may be wrong. But like I say, In College, Philosophy belongs to Arts.


Arts and sciences belong to philosophy, technically speaking (I am not being philosophical here, but have the hat of a college administrator.) Historically, there were four major areas of study at medieval universities, each having a top degree of a doctorate designation: medicine, law, philosophy, and theology.

Then when arts and sciences began to be taught, the school administration wanted to create a doctorate level of achievement, but there were no such room on the forms. So they slapped all and science and art doctorates under philosophical doctorates, and hence a doctor of neurobiology or of English Literature is actually a doctor of philosophy (Ph.D.)

Since then, of course, in modernt times, philosophy became a school in the faculty of arts and sciences at most universities, theology a part of philosophy, and engineering gained its own faculty. But that's in more recent administrative history.
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Re: Publication Forum?

Post Number:#20  Postby Ozymandias » March 5th, 2017, 1:03 pm

-1- wrote:
Ozymandias wrote:Well it seems to me that, while "everything" is apparently philosophy to me, very little at all is philosophy to you. I say that deliberate and conscious thinking on a given subject is philosophy, how would you define it? Does philosophy have to have a certain level of formality to be philosophy to you? Why can an essay on the merits of love and hate be philosophy, while the Harry Potter series is not, even though it deals with the same question adequately?


Valid question. To me philosophy is to state what you are going to prove, and then prove it with logic.

It turns out that our differences stem from our own differing standards of what definitely is philosophy.

We can proceed from here to disprove the validity of the other's definition.

Deliberate and conscious thinking on a given subject is philosophy

(1) The rise of the price of peas. My wife deliberartely and consciously think of how peas are fifty cents more a pound today than they were yesterday.

The occurrence of (1) which is clearly not philosophy, is sufficiently convincing that not ALL deliberate and conscious thinking on a given subject is philosophy. Philosophy may involve deliberate and conscious thinking about a given subject, but the two are not equivalent. In fact, the overwhelming majority of activities that you describe with your definition are not in the realm of philosophy. (Even if you disregard my definition.) Here I employed one of Wittgenstein's maxims, which says that there are ideas and ideals and concepts that nobody can define, but everyone has at least an inkling (Ahnung) was das ist. What that is. Time, life, god, this sort of thing. Philosophy is definable, but only if you start mit einer Ahnung at first, what it is. Without that Ahnung there could be no further definitions of philosophy (other than mechanical, object oriented or else randomly or arbitrarily.)

So I formally (and not emotionally or antagonistically or belligerently) reject your definition of philosophy, because although it fits the idea of philosophical enquiry, it does not delineate it at all from other forms of pondering.

Fair point; what if I trade the word "subject" for "question"?
You might apply a similar argument to that one by bringing up something like "you can think deliberately about what groceries to buy at the store, but it's not philosophy", but I would argue that such an activity is philosophy. You can apply the same logic to an everyday question as you do to questions concerning the grandiose meaning of life, and they can require equal amounts of thought. Essentially, philosophy is philosophy, no matter how mundane.

-1- wrote:Then when arts and sciences began to be taught, the school administration wanted to create a doctorate level of achievement, but there were no such room on the forms. So they slapped all and science and art doctorates under philosophical doctorates, and hence a doctor of neurobiology or of English Literature is actually a doctor of philosophy (Ph.D.)


I might add that the fact that one can have a PhD in literature, since you bring up the terminology in PhD, is supportive of my point that literature is necessarily philosophy.
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Re: Publication Forum?

Post Number:#21  Postby Josefina1110 » March 5th, 2017, 3:56 pm

Everything boils down to the four letter word - - w o r d. Philosophy, science, arts and what not are just words. Man is just playing with words all the time. But there is a person who is the Word. His name is Jesus Christ. Only human beings have problems with words because only human beings use words. Other creatures don't. Man makes things complicated through the use of words. Aldous Huxley said, "Words form the thread on which we string our experience. Jean Paul Satre said, "Words are loaded pistols. "So difficult it is to show the various meanings and imperfections of words when we have nothing else but words to do it," - John Locke. "The words that I speak, they are spirit and they are life," Jesus Christ. "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. John 1:1. "The words of some men are thrown forcibly against you and adhere like briars. --Henry David Thoreau. But the only words that really matter are the words of God. I know you would argue with this because you are a so called "philosopher." All other words are philosophy in my humble opinion.
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Re: Publication Forum?

Post Number:#22  Postby -1- » March 6th, 2017, 12:09 am

Ozymandias wrote:I might add that the fact that one can have a PhD in literature, since you bring up the terminology in PhD, is supportive of my point that literature is necessarily philosophy.

I think that your interpretation is supportive of the fact that you can't distinguish between the concepts of disciplines of enquiry and of administrative divisions.

Let's close the argument that I accept that your personal view is that everything is philosophy. I am okay with that.
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Re: Publication Forum?

Post Number:#23  Postby Ozymandias » March 9th, 2017, 12:41 am

Josefina1110 wrote:Everything boils down to the four letter word - - w o r d. Philosophy, science, arts and what not are just words. Man is just playing with words all the time. But there is a person who is the Word. His name is Jesus Christ. Only human beings have problems with words because only human beings use words. Other creatures don't. Man makes things complicated through the use of words. Aldous Huxley said, "Words form the thread on which we string our experience. Jean Paul Satre said, "Words are loaded pistols. "So difficult it is to show the various meanings and imperfections of words when we have nothing else but words to do it," - John Locke. "The words that I speak, they are spirit and they are life," Jesus Christ. "In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. John 1:1. "The words of some men are thrown forcibly against you and adhere like briars. --Henry David Thoreau. But the only words that really matter are the words of God. I know you would argue with this because you are a so called "philosopher." All other words are philosophy in my humble opinion.

Well, actually, I'm a fairly enthusiastic Christian as well as a "philosopher". This isn't some battle between "philosophers" and "Christians". But I will still argue with your preachy statement because the topic you've thrown it into has little to do with philosophy. I don't know how you presume to hold that the Word of God is any better than the rest of the "words", given that Biblical text is one of the most convoluted, controversial, and varied sets of "words" humans have ever dealt with. Anyway, I really don't see how your statement here is supposed to aide the discussion and I think it's a misuse of Christianity.

Oh- and philosophy, science, arts, and what not have very little to do, fundamentally, with "just words". Science is the act of testing empirically observable phenomena in order to learn about the universe, art is communication by use of any media, not limited to words, and philosophy is... what we have been discussing. Certainly not "just words". Might I ask what you're doing on a discussion forum if it's all "just words" to you? Is there no meaning or significance to the discussion of these words and their implications?


-1-, I suppose, as much as I hate to say it, this is one of those "agree to disagree" things. For now at least; I'll ponder what philosophy intrinsically is and if I end up agreeing with you I'll post it so here.
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