Discuss Beyond Good and Evil
- L00KING
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Re: Discuss Beyond Good and Evil
I like how Nietzche points out that the I is not the cause of thinking. I or the ego is as far as we know just a bunch of sensations, organs, and the mind put together. We don't even have proof of a soul yet. Humans reason, but, some humans may argue that so do animals. Artificial intelligence reasons out things too; but does that make it sentient being or give it a soul?
I agree with his thoughts in most of this book. Language and its limits are absurd to use to talk about truth. Even if we didn't have language as an obstacle there is always another to bar humans from truth. Nevertheless, we should and will, as human beings, always to seek the truth through philosophy.
I concur with Scott that Nietzche is not making a philosophical argument in this book in the modern way. I do believe that he is stating that modern philosophers will always critique their own work and their own religions but still keep to their theories and faiths. This is because we as modern philosophers know that we will never be totally correct in all the truth that we finally recognize. Modern philosophers require a bit of the illusion of the world in order to see the truth in anything. We require a sense of self which we create from all the things we have already experienced. We use this as a grounding instrument, or as our reality and from there walk to truth. We always need a starting point and a goal or some point at which to fix our gaze from a safe distance. I think this is necessary so that a person does not make him or herself go insane for trying to ponder everything that makes up the truth of our universe.
As far as the use of religion as a means to make people content, I have to argue that some modern philosophers, (in fact they may be the majority as far as I know) are atheists that see no need for religion to be content. Religion may be more useful to help the uneducated or controlled population feel content with their lot in life.
In thinking about this book after reading it I have to just laugh at it all and re-commence living and philosophizing. I think Nietzche is indeed mocking human beings and philosophy. Many a time I have laughed at myself because if I tried to understand everything in every moment in continuum, perfectly, I would be. I think that his conclusions would make great fortune cookies.
I want to point out that this book is made available by LibriVox.org as an audiobook for free. This is the only reason I was able to read it at this time since I am a tight budget right now. I am planning to buy this book when I have the money.
- Hereandnow
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Re: Discuss Beyond Good and Evil
But Nietzsche believed in none of this thinking that there is something behind reality, and those who can avoid the excesses of philosophy are better off for it; for there is nothing there to discover. So what do you think: Is the perspective of beyond good and evil right? That is, do you think that human values need to be grounded far away from the metaphysics that have characterized philosophy from Plato through Kant (excluding Aristotle, whom Nietzsche admired an thought was right)? It is not so easy, I think. After all, Nietzsche was a nihilist, and this kind of thinking is deeply disturbing since it recognizes no basis for morality beyond our own making.
- L00KING
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Re: Discuss Beyond Good and Evil
In my view nihilism is positive because it makes me feel free to create and experience and tear down and re-create. I do not feel burdened by the moral perspectives and judgments of other people. That this experience of living has no intrinsic value overall does not mean that it has no purpose for each one of us. We create the purpose for ourselves. I consider myself a moral person and upstanding citizen because of the respect I have for others. The awe that is inspired in me from the contemplation of things other than self makes me want to cherish all other than self for what it is. Morals have been pressed on me but I don't believe that without society I would be without respect for things other than myself. Self still creates the morals though. This is not negative to me and does not disturb me in the least. Why does it disturb you [addressed to anyone]?Hereandnow wrote:"He plainly states that philosophy is so difficult that even the most persevering person might give up to find the truth behind/in our reality."
But Nietzsche believed in none of this thinking that there is something behind reality, and those who can avoid the excesses of philosophy are better off for it; for there is nothing there to discover. So what do you think: Is the perspective of beyond good and evil right? That is, do you think that human values need to be grounded far away from the metaphysics that have characterized philosophy from Plato through Kant (excluding Aristotle, whom Nietzsche admired an thought was right)? It is not so easy, I think. After all, Nietzsche was a nihilist, and this kind of thinking is deeply disturbing since it recognizes no basis for morality beyond our own making.
- Hereandnow
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Re: Discuss Beyond Good and Evil
Well, without society I dare say you would be no self at all since there would be no language, no objective social construct to have as a model to internalize to give you a structured ego. But anyway, you can be all the things you mention above independently of taking on the issue of nihilism. Note that the same applies to all morally repellent conditions: Ignore them and they are irrelevant. The rub lies in the thinking awareness when moral issues are taken to their foundation. At this level, one is asked to examine suffering morally. Nietzsche thinks we made it all up and that we have all been dupes to Christian/ Platonistic metaphysics. But he does this at the risk of endorsing nihilism. This is not so easy to live with if you think about it. It means that all human (animal) suffering is for nothing; that Being decided to torture itself through us, through the beautiful people of the world, and for nothing, for no redeeming reason. If you think about this seriously, it is a moral crisis that cannot stand; it is moraly impossible, notwithstanding Camus. And this consitutes an argument for a qualified theism.Looking said: In my view nihilism is positive because it makes me feel free to create and experience and tear down and re-create. I do not feel burdened by the moral perspectives and judgments of other people. That this experience of living has no intrinsic value overall does not mean that it has no purpose for each one of us. We create the purpose for ourselves. I consider myself a moral person and upstanding citizen because of the respect I have for others. The awe that is inspired in me from the contemplation of things other than self makes me want to cherish all other than self for what it is. Morals have been pressed on me but I don't believe that without society I would be without respect for things other than myself. Self still creates the morals though. This is not negative to me and does not disturb me in the least. Why does it disturb you [addressed to anyone]?
- My Socks Smell
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Re: Discuss Beyond Good and Evil
The worse or evil is a rejected good. In deliberation and before choice no evil presents itself as evil. The worse or evil is a rejected good. In deliberation and before choice, no evil presents itself as evil. Until it is rejected, it is a competing good. After rejection, it figures not as lesser good, but as the bad of that situation. ~ Human Nature and Conduct, in The Middle Words of John Dewey 1983.
Goodness is not remoteness from badness. In one sense, goodness is based upon badness; that is, good action is always based upon action good once, but bad if persisted in under changing circumstances. ~ Outlines of a Critical Theory of Ethics, The Early Works of John Dewey.
-- Updated August 7th, 2013, 9:54 am to add the following --
The view that there is no such thing as a hypostatic realm of eternal things or ideas is not the same as claiming that everything is already destroyed. Just because things exist conditionally and impermanently does not mean they don't exist in any way whatsoever. To say that a cup was broken even before you dropped it is nihilism. To appreciate each unique cup for what it is while it lasts is something else. Which of these was Nietzsche's view?
- Windhorse
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Re: Discuss Beyond Good and Evil
- Universal Knowledge
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Re: Discuss Beyond Good and Evil
So if the need for rules is built into our very make up or society would collapse and even a machine states this requirement (if we are of a merely a mechanical persuasion), then the question arises, where did this need for rules originate from?
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