Lone Wolf's Intro

Harbal · Post by **Harbal** » March 15th, 2015, 5:48 am

Greta wrote: If you call twice in fifteen years "multiple" - more like starvation rations

Let me guess; IT has either got a headache or is too tired.

Post by **Sy Borg** » March 15th, 2015, 6:13 am

Behave yourself, Alfred. Maybe the universe feels that I don't surrender sweetly enough?

Belinda wrote:I remain devoted to reason, not as a strategy that is immune from failure, but as the best I know. Always with the important proviso that my reason is whole and stems from a whole and well functioning nervous system which is not alienated from the neural substrate of ordinary human sympathy.

I like the reliability of reason but today's reason is tomorrow's superceded theory or idea.

So I'm not inclined to downplay the depth of powerful subjective experiences based on models that have some understanding of 5% of (known) reality and precious little understanding of the other 95% - models that are in very earliest stages of pre big bang cosmology (after denying such a thing outright for many years) and are at a similar early stage in consciousness studies.

Lone Wolf · Post by **Lone Wolf** » March 15th, 2015, 11:58 am

Thanks to all of you for the input. I will reply to each of you here.

Belinda - My experience was totally emotional and is true only for me. I do not claim it to be a truth for anyone else nor is there any empirical evidence to support what I know for myself. Please continue to doubt. I agree that is a trait of philosophers and I will not argue any point in which someone claims to have a truth for everyone since I have yet to find a truth spoken by others that does not have exceptions. My only reason for posting on this forum was to find someone with whom to converse because of similar experiences.

Greta - Two peak experiences in fifteen years is wonderful. My only one was more than thirty years ago and I still have the yearning for another. I prefer reason and logic, but I know the emotional experience had no reason or logic. The peace, love, and joy I felt that night will not be forgotten as long as I have memory. Unfortunately there are no words that will transmit that peace, love and joy to others.

Alfred - Rave on. Someday maybe you will have a peak experience and will understand what I am writing about. Until then, treat it anyway you wish.

Namaste'

Belinda · Post by **Belinda** » March 16th, 2015, 4:54 am

Nice, honest response from Lone Wolf.

Post by **Sy Borg** » March 16th, 2015, 7:53 am

Lone Wolf wrote:Greta - Two peak experiences in fifteen years is wonderful. My only one was more than thirty years ago and I still have the yearning for another. I prefer reason and logic, but I know the emotional experience had no reason or logic. The peace, love, and joy I felt that night will not be forgotten as long as I have memory. Unfortunately there are no words that will transmit that peace, love and joy to others.

Yes, they are unforgettable. The first one was only for a split second, which is probably just as well because it was lunchtime at work in a public park. The wave of bliss was like nothing I've known.

The second one was much longer and, as one who loves science and spent years working in a scientific institution and socialising with scientists and their cronies, it's embarrassing to say that I know exactly what you mean when you say "the peace, love, and joy I felt that night will not be forgotten". Part of me thinks it absurd and the other part can't deny it happened. It's forced me to be open minded and left me with confidence about the future - of everything - but no certainty.

Lone Wolf wrote:Alfred - Rave on. Someday maybe you will have a peak experience and will understand what I am writing about. Until then, treat it anyway you wish.

There ya go, Harbal - you can come out of your box again

Harbal · Post by **Harbal** » March 16th, 2015, 3:00 pm

Lone Wolf wrote: Alfred - Rave on. Someday maybe you will have a peak experience and will understand what I am writing about. Until then, treat it anyway you wish.

If I sounded dismissive it was probably out of envy, never having had one of these peak experiences that everyone else round here seems to have bloody well had.

Belinda · Post by **Belinda** » March 16th, 2015, 3:05 pm

Harbal wrote:
Lone Wolf wrote: Alfred - Rave on. Someday maybe you will have a peak experience and will understand what I am writing about. Until then, treat it anyway you wish.
If I sounded dismissive it was probably out of envy, never having had one of these peak experiences that everyone else round here seems to have bloody well had.

Perhaps there is not a qualitative difference between a peak experience and any other euphoric mood. If there is a qualitative difference perhaps those who have had peak experience could try to put a name to it. May I suggest that the qualitative difference, if any, is that the peak experience is a sudden strong euphoria that is characterised by personal detachment which is usually called 'ecstasy'? The word 'ecstasy' refers to being outside of or beside self.

St Teresa's unintentional comparison of her peak experience with orgasm indicates that her religious ecstasy bore the same character of feeling beside or detached from self, as does orgasm.

Lone Wolf · Post by **Lone Wolf** » March 16th, 2015, 9:48 pm

Belinda: There is a qualitative difference between peak experience and euphoric mood. My joy lasted for days while typical euphoria seldom lasts for more than a few hours at most. I coached a championship team when I was in my early forties. The afternoon we won the championship I was euphoric, but by bedtime I was back to my normal self. As far as comparing a peak experience to an orgasm is concerned, that orgasm would also have to last for days. I cannot speak for others and their peak experiences, but I tried to tell others of my experience and found that there was no reference I could name that would help them to understand what I was trying to say. Peak experience simply cannot be put into words. As far as being "out of body" or beside myself is concerned, I will say that I don't recall ever having been in that condition. The paragraph below is from an essay I wrote on love and it was the closing paragraph. I know that it won't help clarify things very much, but it was an effort to explain something that is ineffable.

After reading books on near-death experiences and having visited with my father and my sister after they experienced “the light” during their own experiences, I am convinced I shared the experience each of them had during their near deaths. In each case they told me of moving toward the light and feeling absolutely at peace and absolutely loved. Definition of this love will not be found in dictionaries, poems, plays, songs, or stories. This love is defined by pure emotion. I love my wife but have been unable to share the joy and peace of the night of my epiphany with her. If she experiences the same love, we will each know what the other knows, but we still won’t be able to talk about it simply because words are not sufficient to express that which cannot be defined. Perhaps the day will come when I will be able to transmit the emotion through some kind of transference, but I am sure words will not be included.

Namaste'

Littleendian · Post by **Littleendian** » March 24th, 2015, 5:24 am

Lone Wolf wrote:Belinda: There is a qualitative difference between peak experience and euphoric mood.

For the record: I've never had such an experience, it sounds like a wonderful thing and I hope I'll experience such a thing myself.

But from what you write I don't see where the "qualitative" difference to other positive sensations comes from, what I understood is that it basically "lasts longer". To me that is a "quantitative" difference, not a qualitative one.

Now call me cerebral, but: Doesn't science (and Dawkins in particular) tell us that we are machines built by genes in order to ensure those gene's survival? Now if that is what we are, what are "positive" emotions then but those genes telling their "command center" (our consciousness) that we're doing good in that respect? Sexual pleasure is certainly in that category, delicious food is as well, these ensure the existance and procreation of genes (*). So there are certain biological functions that will release endorphines to reward us for "good behaviour". Is it really far fetched to suspect that these Peak Experiences are nothing but a biological malfunction, the biological reward mechanism kicking in without reason?

(*) Now I guess with our highly developed reason we as gene-machines have somehow gotten out of control of the genes which built us, we can do things that are no longer in the interest of the genes (that is what the enlightened person is to me, a gene-machine refusing further obedience to the blind will of the genes).

Roel · Post by **Roel** » March 24th, 2015, 5:34 am

Littleendian wrote:
Lone Wolf wrote:Belinda: There is a qualitative difference between peak experience and euphoric mood.
For the record: I've never had such an experience, it sounds like a wonderful thing and I hope I'll experience such a thing myself.

But from what you write I don't see where the "qualitative" difference to other positive sensations comes from, what I understood is that it basically "lasts longer". To me that is a "quantitative" difference, not a qualitative one.

Now call me cerebral, but: Doesn't science (and Dawkins in particular) tell us that we are machines built by genes in order to ensure those gene's survival? Now if that is what we are, what are "positive" emotions then but those genes telling their "command center" (our consciousness) that we're doing good in that respect? Sexual pleasure is certainly in that category, delicious food is as well, these ensure the existance and procreation of genes (*). So there are certain biological functions that will release endorphines to reward us for "good behaviour". Is it really far fetched to suspect that these Peak Experiences are nothing but a biological malfunction, the biological reward mechanism kicking in without reason?

(*) Now I guess with our highly developed reason we as gene-machines have somehow gotten out of control of the genes which built us, we can do things that are no longer in the interest of the genes (that is what the enlightened person is to me, a gene-machine refusing further obedience to the blind will of the genes).

I think that, animals which don't know about genes, generally can't counter it. Some humans try to counter evolution, but I think that you can't counter evolution. If you see humans as less important and other animals as better and only help them, you automatically benefit humans because we need other animals for our survival, as food (meat) or as companionship (counter loneliness). Also other acts which might seem to be against human evolution have two different sides of one coin.

Belinda · Post by **Belinda** » March 24th, 2015, 6:08 am

Roel wrote:

Is it really far fetched to suspect that these Peak Experiences are nothing but a biological malfunction, the biological reward mechanism kicking in without reason?

But 'malfunction' is a subjective evaluation. I agree that peak experiences have a physiological component cause, which might well be related to reward to offset some pathological threat; like the biochemical morphia stuff, I forget what it's called. However all of this causation does not imply that peak experiences are necessarily meaningless or inferior to everyday consciousness.

I think that I must be a believer in more is better as far as varieties of consciousness are concerned just so long as reason rules over all.

Littleendian · Post by **Littleendian** » March 24th, 2015, 8:27 am

Belinda wrote:However all of this causation does not imply that peak experiences are necessarily meaningless or inferior to everyday consciousness.

The word "malfunction" carried more negative connotation than I intended. I'm not trying to devalue the experience, I'm just trying to reach an explanation that I can understand, and in the context of this gene-machines-theory such an intense and at times long-lasting reward seems like a biological "malfunction" in absence of a cause...

Lone Wolf · Post by **Lone Wolf** » March 24th, 2015, 11:59 am

I will make one more try to explain the difference between a peak experience and other joyous experiences. It is very difficult since the best description of a peak experience I've heard is "a profound realization that has no words." To me the qualitative difference is the height of joy from the experience is so much more than what comes with orgasm and other happy events. The length of the joy may be quantitative and so, maybe the height is too. As far as reason ruling over all, how can you reason without words?

Namaste'

Harbal · Post by **Harbal** » March 24th, 2015, 3:12 pm

Littleendian wrote: For the record: I've never had such an experience, it sounds like a wonderful thing and I hope I'll experience such a thing myself.

If you do I hope you don't feel the need to give an account of it.

Now call me cerebral, but: Doesn't science (and Dawkins in particular) tell us that we are machines built by genes in order to ensure those gene's survival?

I find this view a bit cerebral, if you don't mind me saying so.

Post by **Sy Borg** » March 24th, 2015, 8:31 pm

Lone Wolf wrote:I will make one more try to explain the difference between a peak experience and other joyous experiences. It is very difficult since the best description of a peak experience I've heard is "a profound realization that has no words." To me the qualitative difference is the height of joy from the experience is so much more than what comes with orgasm and other happy events. The length of the joy may be quantitative and so, maybe the height is too. As far as reason ruling over all, how can you reason without words?

Re: "length of joy". My first PE lasted for just a second - a flash of ... something, and then gone. I wrote about it afterwards:

In January this year one lunchtime I decided to get out of the office and walk in Hyde Park. As I approached Archibald Fountain it struck me what a truly gorgeous day it was. Not a cloud in the sky. Perfect temperature with a beautiful, gentle breeze. The fountain's spray looked glorious with its backdrop of the magnificent St Mary's church and a perfect blue sky. Everybody around looked relaxed and happy - lazing, chatting, playing chess, reading.

I thought to myself "this is perfect" and suddenly felt a wave of bliss through me. At that moment the scene shimmered in front of my eyes, and it took on an unearthly look. It was as though I'd been transported into what felt like another dimension of Archibald Fountain in Hyde Park, if that makes any sense. The fountain, the church, the sky, the pavement, the people; they all took on an insubstantial, ethereal look, almost ghostly. A bit monochrome, like a sepia photo. Almost golden. Kind of made of glowing waves.

The vision disappeared in an instant and everything returned to normal, although the sense of bliss remained, but less strong because I was distracted in trying to work out how to bring the vision back.

If I was to make a wild guess, I'd say that I had a dopamine rise through enjoyment of the scenery and it had a quick overload. If that's the case then reality is not the same when your brain is awash with dopamine.

-- Updated 24 Mar 2015, 19:32 to add the following --

I should say that this flash was followed by several weeks of insight that improved my outlook on life and net happiness. It wasn't just a buzz.