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MutleyDreamer
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Hi! to All...

Post by MutleyDreamer »

Hi! to All,

I'm MutleyDreamer, resident South West UK.

My interests in Philosophy include Socrates, Plato and Nietzsche, more generally Metaphysics including Ontology and Epistemology.

I am very interested in Gnosticism, Kabbalah and study Astrology so my interest really is in esoteric philosophy.

Not an expert or even particularly well versed in any of the above.

Glad to hear from anyone with like minded interests.
Fooloso4
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Re: Hi! to All...

Post by Fooloso4 »

Nietzsche said he is a complete skeptic when it comes to Plato. He actually means something quite different than may appear at first glance. Since you say you are not well versed, I will explain, but first, let me explain why I am going to explain. In short, because both Nietzsche and Plato have been widely misunderstood and this comment helps shed light on Nietzsche’s perspicacious reading of Plato and at the same time on how we are to read Nietzsche.

Nietzsche says he is a complete skeptic when it comes to Plato because both he and Plato are skeptics. We are accustomed to thinking of Socrates as a skeptic (“I know that I do not know”) but do not think of Plato as a skeptic because of his talk of Forms. We assume that Plato knows the Forms or at least defends a “theory of Forms”. Nietzsche is skeptical of this. He thinks that Plato was a skeptic, that he too knew he did not know. There is a growing number of prominent scholars of Plato who now read him in this way.

Nietzsche is often accused of being a nihilist despite his clear assertions to the contrary. He fights against nihilism, but cannot do so, as Plato did, by appeal to eternal truths. Without eternal truths, which by this time had already been rejected by many who were most thoughtful, how can he avoid nihilism? Without true foundations and objective values how can we distinguish between true and false, right and wrong, good and bad? His answer is the same as Plato’s, by inventing new ones. But this does not mean that any truths and any values are as good as any other. Truths and values are to be determined by what is most beneficial to those who hold them. But what is most beneficial to some may not be beneficial to others. Here Nietzsche re-introduces a common practice that had all but been lost to modernity, but still practiced by Descartes and Bacon, esoteric writing, that is, using the same words to say more than one thing. Thus, Nietzsche the skeptic teaches us to read skeptically, to read between the lines, to make connections, and not take things at face value.
Gertie
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Re: Hi! to All...

Post by Gertie »

Welcome MutleyD!

Not one for esoteric stuff myself, but look forward to seeing your take on it :)
Fooloso4
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Re: Hi! to All...

Post by Fooloso4 »

Gertie:
Not one for esoteric stuff myself, but look forward to seeing your take on it
The term covers a wide band of practices, almost all of which I am not one for either. I am not talking about esotericism. It simply means that the author is saying more than what appears to the casual reader. Take, for example, Descartes, who tells the reader that he took as his motto: “He who lived well hid himself well”. He had to hide himself to avoid the fate of Galileo. It was not only his life but his works that had to be protected. Descartes in his writings claims to be a friend of the Church and that he is in the Meditations doing nothing more than showing by reason what those of faith already know. What he does is in fact quite different. He begins by calling into question the authority of the Church by calling everything into question. He thus established the singular and absolute authority of reason. With that in mind one can begin to read the Meditations in a whole new light.

-- Updated October 24th, 2016, 8:03 am to add the following --

It has nothing to do with hermetic knowledge or occult practices. Nietzsche said:
Of all that is written, I love only what a person hath written with his blood. Write with blood, and thou wilt find that blood is spirit. It is no easy task to understand unfamiliar blood; I hate the reading idlers. He who knoweth the reader, doeth nothing more for the reader. Another century of readers—and spirit itself will stink.
Thus Spake Zarathustra, Chapter 7, “Reading and Writing”
Gertie
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Re: Hi! to All...

Post by Gertie »

Just saying hello really :)
Fooloso4
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Re: Hi! to All...

Post by Fooloso4 »

Gertie, where I come from we just say “hello”.

On a serious note, your post reminded me that not all readers will understand what Nietzsche means by ‘esoteric’, so it seems useful to clarify.

By this point MutleyDreamer might be thinking: “Maybe it’s better if I just say ‘bu bye’”.
Gertie
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Re: Hi! to All...

Post by Gertie »

hello fooloso! :D


Dunno, I got the impression they were separate areas of interest for Mutley, the esoteric stuff and the more mainstreamers, but you've made some interesting connections. I'm not much familiar with Nietzsche myself tho. At the risk of hijacking Mutley's intro, what you say here intrigues me -

'' But this does not mean that any truths and any values are as good as any other. Truths and values are to be determined by what is most beneficial to those who hold them. But what is most beneficial to some may not be beneficial to others. Here Nietzsche re-introduces a common practice that had all but been lost to modernity, but still practiced by Descartes and Bacon, esoteric writing, that is, using the same words to say more than one thing. Thus, Nietzsche the skeptic teaches us to read skeptically, to read between the lines, to make connections, and not take things at face value.''


This might account for why I struggled with him! Sounds to me like you're saying he's deliberately ambiguous in order to allow people to read in to what he's saying ways of finding truths and values which work for them, yes? That seems odd, and open to misunderstanding, why not just say - 'Go forth and find truths and values which work for you!'
Fooloso4
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Re: Hi! to All...

Post by Fooloso4 »

Gertie:
This might account for why I struggled with him! Sounds to me like you're saying he's deliberately ambiguous in order to allow people to read in to what he's saying ways of finding truths and values which work for them, yes? That seems odd, and open to misunderstanding, why not just say - 'Go forth and find truths and values which work for you!'
He commented somewhere on the words “seek and ye shall find”. He says that what one seeks is what he shall find. So, some will read into his work and find in it only what they have read into it, only what they hope or expect to find. (The same holds true for all their inquiries). When he says in the quote above: “He who knoweth the reader, doeth nothing more for the reader” he means that he is not going to make his work accessible to the casual reader, the “reading idlers”. He is not going to help them find their way. He is not going to put the pieces together for them. He knows his reader and knows that those he wishes to address will do the work themselves. They will not simply seek as if for treasure and answers but think along with him, and this means not just accepting what is said but objecting and seeing if one’s objections are addressed. It is remarkable how the best thinkers anticipate our objections.

What is often not seen is Nietzsche’s civic minded benevolence. One type of reader he wishes to address are those who are in this sense like-minded. The question they ask is how are we to benefit mankind? The answer is, in part, by creating truths and values for those who cannot and do not do so for themselves, truths and values that that they can live well by. This is only necessary in an age in which the old accepted ways begin to do more harm than good.

He also says that the individual is the latest and most precarious invention of man. For the individual it is a matter of finding truths and values that work for them. The danger, however, is nihilism. If truth and values are an invention then why should we value some and not others or any at all? He calls this a “deadly truth”. So the task is not simply to find suitable truths and values for one’s self, but to learn to live well with deadly truths.
Gertie
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Re: Hi! to All...

Post by Gertie »

Hmmm has a touch of Modernist snobbery about it to me.

I do have a bit of a bug bear tho, in that if you're trying to communicate difficult ideas I think there's an onus on doing it as clearly as you can. Maybe I'm just an idle reader ;) but your explanation I can understand, which seems like a good thing to me! Doesn't mean I have to accept/reject it, it can still be a springboard for forging my own values and truths. Actually I basically agree, that we do create our own truths and values (which of course doesn't mean we're not influenced in that by a host of innate tendencies and experiences, upbringing and culture). ''Learn to live well with deadly truths'' - quite.

I suppose Nietzsche would respond that he's fuelling individual creativity, opening doors, through not being straightforward and prescriptive. And that's fair enough. But my brain gets itchy if I can't pin things down, probably why esoteric subjects aren't my cuppa, never deliver. For me it makes for good art, but not my kind of philosophy.

And of course N was writing in a different time, breaking down doors for the likes of me, so it's a bit cheeky to nitpick.
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Burning ghost
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Re: Hi! to All...

Post by Burning ghost »

If you are interested in gnosticism then I would suggest reading reknowned scholar Francis Yates for an unbiased view about the history and influence of esoteric thought.
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