Legalizing Prostitution

Juice, the age of consent in Texas (my state) is 17. Is that some gold standard, or were you just taking a cheap shot?

I believe legal prostitutes should have regular STD workups, I'm a little confused as to your argument here. If you're saying there should be more regulation, then I agree. The Netherlands is currently tightening up prostitution laws, since, as seems obvious to me, legalizing such an industry requires heavy oversight--the industry is maintained by criminals in other countries, and there is a huge worldwide demand for prostitution.

Why are you bringing up Sweden? Sweden has decriminalized prostitution, but that's different than legalization, which is what has been done in the Netherlands and Nevada. I think that's a better-than-nothing route, as it allows prostitutes to be protected, but maintains the moralist hammer over the heads of clients.

Are you going to defend your previous claims, or just keep switching arguments?

No Alun I am only pointing out the inanity and superfluousness of every other argument which attempts to defend prostitution in whatever vein possible. If one reads my posts one will see that I have remained consistent in my argument.

Some wish to point out other western nations who have more liberal attitudes towards the sex trade and I have pointed out that these examples are highly economically regulated, taxed and confined. I point this out since the only reason a government would allow any such demonstrably demeaning and brutal form of lifestyle is to profit and turn the other check when further human suffering is demonstrated with the blame on other meaningful enterprises rather than the mistakes of government as is happening in this thread.

I have brought up slavery, racism, sexism, child abuse and all manner of human degradation while others want to point out my prejudices, my lack of reason as if these aspects of human character have no value since a human being should be able to do what they want with their bodies no matter the consequences to themselves or the impact to society.

I've gotten everything from ice cream to breast implants as retorts against the fundamental fact that prostitution is just another form of enslavement and that any form of acceptance of prostitution is a casual acceptance of that slavery. If those in the west wish to count themselves among the protectors and defenders of freedom and liberty then it is best that it not show its endorsement in any way of prostitution whether legal, decriminalized or illegal.

The problem is you haven't explained how prostitution is always slavery. If the prostitute really does want to have sex with a customer just because the customer will pay, how is that slavery?

What I'm asking here is, if there is a real and honest contract between the prostitute and customer, how is it unfair?

There is no argument here for me nor do I contend that there is anything to prove that a reasonable person should not be able to reason for himself particularly in light of what I have provided and what one could garner for themselves if there is a value to truth.

The problem here is that so many people are so entrenched in this neoplastic social justice ideology which believes that morality and ethics are just concepts one can conclude by throwing darts at a board. That since there is no legitimacy to standards of value attached to each and every individual which transcends mere nomenclature and through the juxtaposition of self enmity no judgments can be charged and damned.

Granted one can argue that there is no correlation between western slavery, the slave trade and prostitution but I guess people are so used getting what they pay for that the lines between the two have become so blurred that blindness is preferred.

I have also brought up "negative utilitarianism" to see if anyone would wish to engage the topic from that perspective. Are we, through some modern ethical ideologies, aiming to achieve some happiness by allow some pain? Does prostitution agree or disagree with that concept?

Correlation is not causation. Yes, prostitution in general correlates to sex slavery. But prostitution in general is illegal, and all illegal activities correlate to one another. The fact of illegality is a common cause to explain the correlation.

Can you explain how prostitution is slavery, or not?

In order to understand the "correlation" between prostitution and slavery we need to understand the history of prostitution. While it may be fun to describe prostitution as the worlds oldest "profession" most woman in ancient times who survived by selling sex were slaves. If one visits Italy one can visit some of the oldest Brothels in history, the woman were imported from Greece to work in the sex trade. So here we can see a historical example of woman forced into the sex trade as slaves.

As I have indicated in a previous post a slave owner could rape a slave, or if one will, have intercourse with a slave as a right of property. The slave, to survive, was subject to the whims of the master. Quite often young female slaves were sold for the express purposes of the masters pleasure.

From the letters of the Rev. John Rankin (1823,1833,1839)

II. The slaveholder has it in his power to violate the chastity of his Slaves. And not a few are beastly enough to exercise such power. Hence it happens that, in some families, it is difficult to distinguish the free children from the slaves. It is sometimes the case that the largest part of the master's own children, are born, not of his wife, but of the wives and daughters of his slaves, whom he has basely prostituted as well as enslaved.

His poor slaves are his property, and therefore must yield to his lusts as well as to his avarice! He may perpetrate upon them the most horrid crimes, and they have no redress! The wretched slave must, without a murmuring word, give up his wife or daughter for prostitution, should his master be vile enough to demand her of him!

In the 1860 US census there were 588,000 mulatto woman. Many of whom were forced to work in the sex for hire industry in both the north and south. All of this "legal" in the eyes of the law of the land. I would suggest that those interested avail themselves of the Library of Congress vast information covering slavery to have a clear idea that slavery is not just physical and mental repression but also a product of an inherently evil mind, which still exist today.

Before we get ahead of ourselves and think that this was just a byproduct of the evils of slavery consider that many woman who entered into the industry in the nineteenth and twentieth century were woman who immigrated from Europe who could not find decent employment and supplemented their income and increased their ability to survive by becoming prostitutes.

Prostitutes are discriminated against, shamed, ostracized, segregated and dehumanized just like slaves no matter the color of their skin.

The US State Department asserts that:
...prostitution is inherently harmful and dehumanizing, and fuels trafficking in persons, a form of modern-day slavery.

The Abolitionist approach declares that the institution of prostitution itself constitutes a violation of human rights, akin to the institution of slavery (in fact the term 'Abolitionist' was originally used to describe campaigners against the transatlantic slave trade). As such, no person, even an adult, is believed to be able to give genuine consent to engaging in prostitution. Prostitution only persists through the efforts of procurers or pimps, the 'third parties,' who induce a woman into prostitution, openly or by means of deceit and coercion, to extort her earnings from her. The Abolitionist approach requires governments to abolish prostitution through the penalisation of this 'third party', which profits from the transaction between prostitute and client. The prostitute cannot be punished, as she is the victim of a process she does not control. Without the 'third party', it is believed that the institution of prostitution will wither away.

While it may be debatable to equate prostitution with slavery when some blond haired blue eyed co-ed goes off on a sexual jaunt for pay to make ends meet. Or that there is a demand from older Japanese men for well to do girls as young as 12 who willingly prostitute themselves for large profits the overriding truth is that the vast majority of workers in the sex trade do so as a product of some form of force, whether that be economic, social or cultural and any time some degree of force is placed upon an individual where by that individual is dehumanized and treated as "chattel" then that is slavery.

Some who may have glossed over the Black Conservative thread will have missed an opportunity to understand just how damaging the social justice industry is and where it has its roots but part of the problem is this nasty idea that freedom doesn't have a price and sometimes that price is actually doing what is right rather than what simply feels right.

It's a shame that some are unable to figure much of this out on their own.

[Scott]

Juice,

Though you continue to talk about sex slavery, rape and non-consensual as if to make it seem like consensual prostitution between competent adults is somehow tantamount to slavery.

Yet, your arguments and claims in now way show us that prostitution is slavery. You've shown that it can be slavery, but not that it is.

Activities that involve using force or the threat of force to get someone to do something for you or just to hurt them are in one category. The other category contains actions that are, in contrast, consensual. The first category includes actions like rape, murder, and battery. The second category contains other actions like doing drugs, paying employees poorly, prostitution, and indeed many actions that it would be considered ludicrous to criminalize such as eating ice cream or watching too much TV.

For the sake of clarity, let me point out the many scarecrow issues about which I happen to agree with you:

I agree with you that I want sex slavery to be illegal.

I agree with you that I want rape to be illegal.

I agree with you that we need to consider how economic pressure can effectively be slavery, but this applies to any profession not just prostitution. Here's another instance of me explaining such an argument. I think I agree with it more than you!

I agree with you that I would not engage in prostitution myself.

I agree with you that I would very much not want my children or other close family members to be a prostitute or to use prostitution, and as long as they are young enough I would disallow my children from it.

I agree with you in laughing at those whose sexual ineptness leads them to prostitutes.

But I do not see why you support the criminalization of prostitution. All of those arguments above are clearly red herrings.

I have read through your posts to try to infer the underlying principle that dictates what types of actions you want criminalized. I apologize for not understanding you better, but I have failed to find it. Can you please provide a clear, direct answer to this question which I've asked you before: What qualities does any given activity have to possess for you to support criminalizing it and waging an expensive government-run war on it?

From your arguments, it seem you are simply a utilitarian statist or a populist, i.e. you support government infringing on the freedom of individuals to make society more productive or supposedly lead to less actual violent crime (e.g. murder, rape, etc.). This is what it seems when your arguments for criminalizing prostitution (besides the red herrings listed above) is that it promotes destructive and criminal activity, that it correlates to slavery, that you don't want it "celebrated," etc.

Even from the view of utilitarian statism or populism (or whatever you want to call your brand of what you call "black conservatism" which apparently entails government regulation of consensual individual interactions supposedly for the collective good), wouldn't you support legalizing consensual prostitution if that would drastically reduce the amount of STDs (especially among prostitutes themselves), rape of prostitutes, drug addiction (especially among prostitutes themselves) trafficking of unwilling women, underage prostitution, violent crime and government spending, and create better conditions for prostitutes themselves? If not, why not?

In order to understand the "correlation" between prostitution and slavery we need to understand the history of prostitution... the overriding truth is that the vast majority of workers in the sex trade do so as a product of some form of force

As Scott says, virtually none of this or your last post is disputed. How do you get from this correlation to a legal paradigm? Slavery is illegal, that doesn't mean that prostitution, when it isn't slavery or rape, should still be illegal.

What I do disagree with is the ridiculous assertion that, "no person, even an adult, is believed to be able to give genuine consent to engaging in prostitution." You yourself immediately contradict this claim.

Scott-I have put forth an argument, not just rhetoric, using historical and current accounts equating prostitution with slavery. In fact one quote which I have presented, from a source whose only purpose is to study prostitution, from a legal, constitutional, social, and cultural perspective explicitly states that,"... the institution of prostitution itself constitutes a violation of human rights, akin to the institution of slavery..." and further commits, "As such, no person, even an adult, is believed to be able to give genuine consent to engaging in prostitution.". These are not armchair quarterbacks who consider this subject to be an intellectual or ideological exercise, but have correlated statistics and personal accounts to formulate a psycho-socialologocal conclusion.

While I have made an attempt to educate I must concede that if no understanding of the premise is desired or forthcoming that no understanding of any premise will be realized.

The thinking, by some, is that prostitution can be "fixed" (negative utilitarianism) through legalization or decriminalization. Despite some agreeing that prostitution is an evil affecting society in detrimental ways and that they would not be amenable to having any family member, sister, or daughter engage in that dehumanizing activity, and also agree that if prostitution were to be decriminalized or legalized that some government regulations be applied to that activity, suggesting that confinement, mandatory medical screenings and taxable income will somehow produce some level of freedom is exactly the "strawman" I am accused of. The prostitute must also supply information regarding procurement of funds which would lead to solicitors also claiming that activity as part of reporting on their tax returns.

I submit that the current status and legal attitude towards prostitution allows the prostitute, solicitor and solicited greater access to freedom if the argument is based on Thirteenth Amendment and subsequent judicial decisions.

Let's examine the fallacy of limiting incidents if STD, particularly HIV. When the legal prostitute is mandated (even if it is against her will) to subject herself to regular STD testing. Given the fact that most STD's have incubation periods and particularly the fact that HIV does not show itself in standard testing for six to eight weeks, a legal prostitute would then infect numerous solicitors at anytime between contracting the disease and a positive test result. Besides that a legal prostitute who has the potential of contracting a STD at anytime, since we would not want to infringe on an individuals right not to use a condom or any other recommended protection, would have to provide the names of clients who intern would have to provide names of any other partner they may have had unprotected,or even otherwise, sexual encounters with, and so on and so forth. I can see how my argument for complete prohibition of prostitution in any form is a statist precept of government intrusion and control from any other argument accorded to this possible reality given the attitude towards making prostitution a safe and constructive part of happy communal living.

Let us also not pretend to forget what this would mean for personal medical insurance or proposed public health insurance plans. What would the prostitute have to pay in premiums or how long would it take the government to decide that costs of ensuring prevention is greater than just denying the cures while the affected are locked away in camps for the protections of the greater good of society? Let me say it for you, STRAWMAN.

As we know San Fransisco is as left wing and liberal a city as one could get. In fact I wouldn't live there if they offered me free Starbucks for life. But I have to give credit where credit is due since in 2008 the "people" of San Fransisco voted NO when presented, on a ballot, to decriminalize prostitution. Granted that I am now confused since I don't know if the SF statist defeated that bill or if regular Americans with common sense turned out to defeat the progressive statist.

Suggested
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/10/29/9310/7824 /255/645558

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/pdfs/Farley_Ke lly.pdf


Examination of the "slippery slope arguments" some have presented against my moderate attempts to protect innocents from the ravages of misguided capitalist ventures associated with prostitution whether legal, decriminalized or not, likened to Christian acceptance of slavery either shows a willful ignorance of the subject matter or a confusion with confronting the problem using abstract and fallacious moral reasoning from modern Christian values and successful historic Christian abolitionist movements. While I am, admittedly, Christian and often maligned as not wanting to understand or view society outside of Christian ideologies and morality which have often been sited as causing great evils and human suffering, it seems to me that despite the overwhelming evidence available to show that prostitution is just a furtherance of the same evil mentality that supports slavery and has often found its way into forced acceptance by rules of law that there is a continuing following of the same historic evils by rules of law so many Christians have fought and died to end without quarter or half baked surreptitious rationals.

Scott-Please do me the justice of just calling me a "Right Wing Bible Thumping Conservative" I was genuinely insulted by the "Statist" reference.

"As such, no person, even an adult, is believed to be able to give genuine consent to engaging in prostitution.". These are not armchair quarterbacks who consider this subject to be an intellectual or ideological exercise, but have correlated statistics and personal accounts to formulate a psycho-socialologocal conclusion.

Once again, this is the problem here. None of your arguments work unless you show that the bold quote is true. And you cannot just reference studies of illegal prostitution; what we're saying is that if you pull prostitutes out of the arena of criminals, then all of these correlations with abuse can go away.

What we're talking about is how prostitution always is; what is inherent to prostitution. So why is it impossible for a person to consent to prostitution? Do you honestly think that all of the sex workers who advocate decriminalization are really being coerced?

Alun-I am a military man and I understand full well the progressive, social justice industry tactics being employed here and I will debate this matter to the end.

I have provided historical evidence. I have provided links to professional researchers, who have concluded, as I have provided and which you further site, as established through approved methodologies that prostitution in all its manifestations is slavery and as such should be abolished since it is as is slavery the perpetuation of evil in society just like slavery.

I will repeat, and site from my previous post;

While I have made an attempt to educate I must concede that if no understanding of the premise is desired or forthcoming that no understanding of any premise will be realized.

I have refuted any and all arguments contending that prostitution can be a considered freedom of choice that any government entity will not regulate beyond any rational understanding of freedom.

It is not a matter that "I" consider that all persons who engage in prostitution are coerced, (even though I do agree with the experts),in some manner but that view is supported by experts who have taken into account all relevant applications available to support and conclude that reality, which I have dutifully provided for review.

More presentations in dispute of the myth that decriminalization or legalizations of prostitution alleviates some or any of the ills prostitution inherently fosters;

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/Report%20on%20 NZ%2010-29-2008.pdf

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/prostitution_r esearch/000161.html

And there is more if some are not convinced.

I would like to offer that prostitution is not just a detriment to young girls and woman but has been found to similarly effect boys and men in the same way.

We have to understand and make a distinction as to why men want to use prostitutes. While I am sure that arguments can come up that availability to sex by lonely desperate men is reasonable or even rational the reality is that generally men who have no respect for woman and wish to debase woman, frequent prostitutes.

If we stop and think about it for a moment. Most men are decent hardworking guys who would no more harm a fly let alone a fellow human being. Most men, in order to relax or wind down visit their favorite watering hole and maybe even dance along with a few drinks. Now if some gets lucky and a woman feels an attraction most men would just consider themselves lucky and be happy for the thrill of a night of intimacy. Personally I could never engage with any woman, or on a far less intimate level with men, unless they had something more to offer in regards to conversation whether it be humor, sports, politics or just simple philosophy to offer. I think most people are the same way. I will not pretend to be a prude or believe that a person should wait until marriage to explore or experiment with intimacy or sex. After all who buys a car without a test drive?:D But, I will not pretend that I want to deliberately know anyone unless we have more to offer eachother than just a moments physical contact.

While I wont bore anyone with personal anecdotes I will say that I was the consummate sailor and proud of it, I would like to think that any relationships I have had have in some way left a memorable mark. I know that I still reminisce, privately of course, on many of my encounters with woman and hope that they have found the same happiness I have and that they should know how much a part of that they are. So many songs and poems recount that sentiment.

What I am trying to point out that having experienced much in life and of life I can say with some amount of certitude that men who frequent prostitutes do not do so out of loneliness or some desperate physical need which is much more satisfactory when gotten by less distortable means. Granted my morality may not endear anyone to its reality but I have presented a case against prostitution aside from that ideology. It is concise and supported by sociologist, psychologist and historical instances. Prostitution is slavery. Its reasons and design promulgated by the need some have to control the minds and bodies of those whose choices are limited by force even of force of circumstances. Support for decriminalization and legalization comes from those who wish to have a cover for furthering dehumanization and brutalization. What difference does it make to the battered if the batterer only wants to batter whether one is legally protected or not?

I would remind people of the recent ACORN troubles were some working on legal capacities were more than willing to assist in the exploitation of children for the purposes of personal gain. Who wants to have sex with children? How less dirty are our hands if we support such indecency in any manner?

P.S. In the research I have provided there are statistics which state that anywhere between 90 and 95%, depending on the study, of prostitutes are so engaged through some form of coercion and/or force which includes, as a reasoned sort, any other forms of enslavement.

I have provided and which you further site, as established through approved methodologies that prostitution in all its manifestations is slavery and as such should be abolished since it is as is slavery the perpetuation of evil in society just like slavery.
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In the research I have provided there are statistics which state that anywhere between 90 and 95%, depending on the study, of prostitutes are so engaged through some form of coercion and/or force which includes, as a reasoned sort, any other forms of enslavement.

Ok, I'm sorry that I have to keep repeating myself, but again, don't you see some contradiction here? And with your earlier reference to a blonde, blue-eyed coed trading favors or even cash for sex? Clearly prostitution is possible without coercion, otherwise there would not be this 5-10% missing from the numbers of your biased studies.

I am again saying that prostitution is not equivalent to slavery, as evidenced by the fact that it can exist without slavery, even according to your own posts. There would be no such thing as prostitution advocates who were also sex workers. There would be no such thing as spontaneous, solicited offers of prostitution (e.g. the college coed). So there is no way the people who claim, "no person, even an adult, is believed to be able to give genuine consent to engaging in prostitution," can be right.

Alun your trying and I will give credit, not much but some, for at least some sort of creative reasoning.

I hate analogies but here goes;

Would you use toilet paper if 90% of it was already used?

If I tried to sell you 95% of a car would you buy it at the 100% price?

If there were man eating sharks in a tank and I told you it was safe to jump in since I fed 10% of them, would you jump in?

"The clinchers"
If I told you that 10% of my slaves were happy to be slaves would you just want to free 90%?

If I told you that 10% of my prostitutes have a 90% chance of carrying HIV would you take the chance on the other 90% who have a 10% chance?

Adversus solum ne loquitor.

If you went to a country where 90% of the toilet paper was already used, would you throw out the bad toilet paper and use the 10% that was clean toilet paper, or stop using toilet paper?

I'd stop using toilet paper Alun!:oops: I've had to use grass, leaves and even sand before. If anyone wants lessons on how to make some decent toilet paper from brown paper bags or newspaper just let me know. As I've stated, sometimes one just has to do what is right, not just what feels right.