What is this feminism? (To quote Borat)...

[Simon says...]

This is a bit random but I was just wondering what everyone's thoughts where on the issues surrounding feminism. What is it? Why is it important? Does it lead to any problems? If so what? Does it sometimes go too far, and how far is too far? What does it mean to be a feminist? & How did it go from being a pretty much non-existent idea, to be a world changing phenomenon?

I have my own ideas and thought, but am curious for everyone elses?

[JPhillips]

Good subject. I am surprised no one has responded before now.

Sexism and Feminism are not limited to the United States, of course. However,I don't feel qualified to discuss these matters from an international point of view. I just do not have enough knowledge to give an informed opinion.

Women have been struggling with the issue of equality in this country for a long time. Here are a couple of sites that will give you a timeline for organized feminism and the Woman's Movement:

http://feminism.eserver.org/theory/feminist/Womens -Movement.html.

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/womenstimeline1.htm l

The Feminist movement, in this country at least, began like any other movement in which one group felt it wasn't being afforded the same basic considerations, rights and priveleges as other groups.

We are a predominantly Christian nation. The Bible, at least in my opinion, seems to support some degree of sexism and male supremacy over the women.

I read on-line once that some women were thrown in jail, beaten and otherwise physically abused during the Suffrage movement for women. Google it and I am sure you can find reference to some of the atrocities committed against women. In many cases, women have been just as active as men in resisting the movement.

After men were called to war in World War II, women were called upon to replace men in the workplace to make of for the shortage of manpower and to assist with the war effort. After the war, many women wished to continue to work. They had more than proven they were capable, and many men and women had become aware of this.

Women's rights were also addressed during the time of the Civil Rights Move of the sixties. Women were burning their bras in protest of discrimination against women at this time. The birth control pill became available and afforded women better options in preventing pregnancy.

As more and more women entered into the workplace, women became less and less dependent upon men for support. It should be no surprise that has women became more able to support themselves, the option of divorce became more realistic. This gave women a new found independence for the first time. Now there was a kind of strength and enpowerment for many that was previously non-existent.

As in any social movement, there was the emergence of a more radical, militant group of feminists. Whereas some women only seek equality and equal pay in the workplace and in their social statures, others would prefer to simply trade places with men as the dominate group. There are many women, I am sure, who would have preferred not having to go to war and don't care to engage in jobs in which men are by nature, physically superior in the performance of activities that require strength, endurance, speed, agility, or any other physical requirements that men are better suited for.

The downside in all of this is that the way our society has traditionally defined the roles of men and women has blurred. House cleaning, cooking, and child rearing, which were once considered to be the primary responsibilities of the woman, are no longer considered to be gender specific roles. Obviously this has caused some friction between married couples in the home and workplace. I also think there were definite advantages in the mother raising the children rather than daycare and nannies. Where one income was previously sufficient to support a family, now in many cases it takes both the man and wife working to make ends meet.

I would go so far as to say women in this country are treated much better than many other countries. It was a struggle for women to reach this point, however. The fight is still not over in that a disparity in the wages for women is overall less than those for a man, and men still have an advantage over women in hiring and promotional opportunities, in many cases.

[Belinda]

JPhillips, all you say is correct.I want to enlarge upon your saying that women in this country are treated better than in some other countries.

Let's consider the 'honour killings' that some ignorant immigrants inflict upon their daughters for perceived breaches of family honour; not their sons. Their daughters.

Let's remember that the Taleban don't let girls get educated.They let boys get educated.

Let's remember that as far as circumcision is concerned, male circumcision is at best a surgical procedure to sort something wrong with the foreskin, or for tribal hygiene rules.Female circumcision is for the absolutely different purpose of destroying for ever the woman's physical pleasure in sex.This is man controlling and demoting women.

The babies who are found on rubbish dumps in India are girls.

When there is starvation the girls are fed last.

The feminist movement may seem to be about freeing western women from unequal pay, or exclusion from male privileges, or sexism in career advancement, but all this is invisible compared with the bad treatment or actual torture of women in backward countries. One can feel more allegiance towards women as a group than towards one's own countrymen. I do.
I say 'backward countries' with some thought, and I say 'backward countries' because our post-Enlightenment culture is better than their's by reason of our culture's moral code that is inclusive, and looks to be becoming more so.
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Socialist

[JPhillips]

Belinda

I was aware of some of the atrocities which women suffer in certain areas of the world. You brought up things I had not heard of before now. Thanks for your input

The real tragedy, for me at least, is when religion is used to openly discriminate against and devalue women.

What astounds me even more, is how even sophisticated, highly educated people in the United States could have such backwards opinions in regards to women.

Rosalind Frankin may have contributed as much to the discovery of the molecular structure of DNA as the men who were awarded the Nobel Prize. Ironically, she was not only slighted in regards to this prestigious honor, she was slighted by the scientists that worked beside her. It is incredible that a woman of her intellect and ability would be treated as an inferior by intelligent men of science.

Not too long ago, the word "doctor" was never associated with a woman.

When Bill Clinton was president, Hillary played an important role in politics and in supporting him. So much so that it could be said that it launched her public career in politics.

I know we are still a country which is predominately controlled and ruled men. It is still referred to as "a man's world". But remember the Virginia Slim commercial in which the slogan was coined, "you've come a long way, baby"?

[ape]

[Nick_A]

[Belinda]

[Scott]

My dictionary defines 'feminism' as the "belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes."

My favorite writer, Voltairine de Cleyre was a feminist.

It seems obvious to me that sexism against women is more prevalent than racism. In that sense, feminism has not only not gone too far but has not gone far enough.
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Online Philosophy Club - Please tell me how to improve this website!

[Simon says...]

"belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes."

I'm not sure "equality" is the right word, because to be treated equally is to be treated the same. But men and women are not the same, there are fundamental differences. I certainly think "equality" should be delt in all cases where gender or sex has nothing to do with the matter at hand, such as if a man and a woman are applying for the same job in journalism or something like that. What I care about in that situation of choosing which one to employ, is not who has the extra x chromosome, but who can actually do the job. If the man does it better I will employ him, and if the woman does it better I will employ her.

But I think you know what I'm getting at, I do not want to be treated the "same" as a woman, I would want to be treated the same as a man, for that is what I am. If someone calls me a girl I am insulted, not because there is anything wrong with being a woman but because I'd like to be called what I am, a man. One shouldn't treat a woman as a man (unless they have gender identication issues or are generally consenting to it), you should treat her as a woman, and one should not treat a man as a woman you treat a man as a man. So where gender or sex is a necessary part of the matter at hand then equality is absurd. If I'm employing a modal who is going to show off this months women's undergarments, I'm not exactly going to employ a man am I?

So it basically depends on the situation.

[Scott]

[Simon says...]

[JPhillips]

After reviewing some of the comments on feminism, I believe part of the problem is how we are defining feminism. Maybe we need to ask the following questions:

1. Should women be allowed to vote?
2. Should women be allowed to run for public office?
3. Should women be allowed to attend colleges?
4. Should women be allowed to become medical doctors?
5. Should women who perform the exact same job as a man be given the same pay?
6. Who is responsible for women attaining these basic human rights?

*Actually feminists are still struggling with #5. They are not quite there yet. But they've made a difference.

I copied this from Wikipedia:

[Nick_A]

[Belinda]

There are three questions.

One is pragmatic. Is feminism a way to make the world better?

Two is biological. Are women and men essentially different?

Three is political. If women and men are essentially different, how should legislation affect both men and women under a) socialism b) conservatism?
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Socialist

[JPhillips]

1. Of course it is. That is self evident from the historical significance of the feminist movement. What is fair for the goose is fair for the gander.

2. Yes, in a way that brings about a desired balance; one is incomplete without the other. Yin and Yang. But also each of us should have a feminine side and a masculine side.

3. Not sure I follow you. Equal is equal no matter how you slice it or regardless of the type of government.