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pjkeeley
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 635
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Post: #1  Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:18 am Post subject: Atheism: let's clear a few things up |
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Atheism is not a belief. It is a lack of belief. To be precise, it is a lack of belief in gods. Nor is it a religion, in the same way that baldness is not a hair colour. It is not a belief that gods do not exist, as many people seem to think.
Atheism is not a movement. There are movements consisting of atheists, some of which may even claim to represent atheists generally. They don’t. Atheism is as personal as belief. However, atheism is a lack of belief, and as such has no aims.
Atheists can behave morally. This is possible because there are good reasons to behave morally that have nothing to do with God. This is not a new concept. It was shown thousands of years ago by Plato in his Euthyphro dilemma. Does God command morally right behaviour because it is morally right, or is it morally right because God commands it? If the former, then morally right behaviour is morally right regardless of God’s existence, and as such there are reasons to act morally that have nothing to do with God. If the latter, then that which is morally right is completely arbitrary. God could change his mind about what is right or wrong and we would have no choice but to go along with it. We couldn’t argue that something is right or wrong for a reason. The only reasons would be God’s. This might appeal to some, but it doesn’t appeal to me.
However, there are good reasons to behave morally, and they are obvious. Atheist or believer, we all want to live our own lives. And, arguably, the only way we can live without constant conflict is if we agree on certain rights and agree to live in a system that will protect those rights. It has nothing to do with whether or not God gave us those rights or whether people did: they benefit us all, so we consent to live by them.
Atheists are not, as some on this forum have claimed, only answerable to themselves. They are, rather obviously, answerable to anyone who is affected by their actions, just like everyone else. Humans are social beings.
Atheists do not believe life has no purpose. Purpose need have nothing to do with evolution. Many atheists, like myself, believe life is meaningful. However, I do not believe that meaning is objective, eternal, or God-given. It is subjective, finite, and personal. It is based on my interests, desires, goals, relationships, feelings and thoughts. It is simply a part of being a conscious self. Please do not claim my life is meaningless because I am an atheist.
Atheists do not believe that truth is subjective or relative. In fact many atheists believe in an objective reality that can be subjectively experienced, and that knowledge can be acquired through the empirical method. This is not a requirement of atheism. Atheists do not idolise science. Science is a method, albeit a method that many atheists consider useful.
Atheists do not hate God, do not hate believers, do not hate religions, do not seek to abolish religion, and do not seek to impose atheism on anyone. The actions of some disrespectful atheists do not represent atheism generally, any more than the actions of some disrespectful believers represent religions generally.
Please, no more straw men arguments. At least make an effort to understand what atheism is and where atheists are coming from. |
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JPhillips
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 207
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| Post: #2 Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:43 am Post subject: Atheism |
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You read and responded to my post, so I am reciprocating.
You seem like a decent human being. I apologize if it sounded as though I was attacking you personally.
I believe in God because of my observations and personal experiences. I know my beliefs have made me a better person. This leads me to believe the same should apply to others.
I'm just curious. Are you a hard core atheist or an agnostic? What keeps you honest when no one is watching? Why would you not cheat on your wife or girlfriend if you absolutely knew you could get away with it without ever being caught? Do you contribute this to some hard wiring in the brain?
I can get pretty defensive as well as offensive sometimes after I read comments from the new atheists of which I mentioned in my post, when I feel my beliefs are being ridiculed.
I bet you are fairly young. I am not convinced you will remain an atheist until the day you die. Then again, I may be wrong.
I could never accept the theory that we are one big cosmic accident and will all cease to exist in due time. This is not just about evolution theory. First the universe had to come into existence. No one has been able to explain how that happened, outside of it started with The Big Bang.
I suppose our inability to understand how and why someone can believe in something we find unfathomable and unbelievable makes it harder to understand that person. I will strive to be more tolerant. |
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pjkeeley
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 635
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| Post: #3 Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:43 am Post subject: |
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I appreciate your comments JPhillips, thank you for being respectful. I will answer your questions as long as you take them to be my personal responses and not those of atheism generally.
| JPhillips wrote: |
| Are you a hard core atheist or an agnostic? |
Strictly speaking, agnostic. Nobody knows for certain whether gods exist or not. But I live by the assumption that there are no gods and no afterlife.
| JPhillips wrote: |
| What keeps you honest when no one is watching? Why would you not cheat on your wife or girlfriend if you absolutely knew you could get away with it without ever being caught? Do you contribute this to some hard wiring in the brain? |
Do you mean to suggest that the only thing that is keeping you from cheating on your wife or girlfriend if you knew you could get away with it is your belief that God is watching?
I wouldn't do it because, above all, sex has never appealed to me enough for me to be deceitful in order to get it. It's that simple. But if you want a more detailed answer then yes, it has to do with hard-wiring in the brain. The feelings experienced by all properly functioning humans are powerful influences. Guilt and love would be worth mentioning here. These are powerful biological responses that can be even more powerful than the drive to promiscuity. But let's be clear here: the biological account is not the be-all and end-all of atheist morality. Just because feelings are biological in origin doesn't make them any less significant, and just because certain feelings associated with certain behaviour can be influential doesn't mean we aren't responsible for what we do.
I hold that we are responsible to other people for the consequences of our actions. We are also reponsible to ourselves. I don't just live through the eyes of other people. If I did, I wouldn't really exist as an authentic being. If I only exist through the eyes of others I would cease to exist as a subject and would become nothing more than an object, for all intents and purposes. This is something I take great pains to avoid. To avoid being an object, I must be my own judge. My actions define who I am. Even if nobody else knew I was being deceitful, I would know. I could try to trick myself into believing I was not responsibile for being deceitful, but that would be what Sartre termed bad faith. It would make me less authentic. I take full responsibility for everything I do, and everything I do defines who I am. I choose not to define myself as deceitful by not acting in a deceitful way.
These are existentialist ideas and they have a lot to do with my morality. On top of that, I try to take utilitarian considerations seriously. The fact is, there are many reasons to act morally, and the idea that God might be watching us is to me one of the least convincing reasons, even if I were to assume that he exists.
| JPhillips wrote: |
| I bet you are fairly young. I am not convinced you will remain an atheist until the day you die. Then again, I may be wrong. |
I am in my twenties and was not raised into any religion, though I chose to attend a Catholic school in my teens and for a time considered myself vaguely religious. Not anymore. I hope I will remain a life-long atheist like Sartre, Camus or Russel. What makes you think I won't?
| JPhillips wrote: |
| I could never accept the theory that we are one big cosmic accident and will all cease to exist in due time. |
Why? |
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OTavern
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 413
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| Post: #4 Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| pjkeeley wrote: |
| The fact is, there are many reasons to act morally, and the idea that God might be watching us is to me one of the least convincing reasons, even if I were to assume that he exists. |
That depends on your perspective of God. If God is all-knowing and all-loving, the quintessential moral being, then His opinion would certainly count. In fact, in the balance, the moral reasoning of an all-knowing, infinitely loving Being who has a vested interest in the entire cosmos and every living being in it should be the most sought after ethical opinion of any moral agent. So, I would suggest that the fact that God is watching and listening and advising is a very good reason to act according to "His will," for the simple reason that His moral opinions would be of an infinitely higher quality than our own. In fact, it would be incumbent on any lesser moral being, to improve their own ethical behaviour by seeking out the best and brightest ethical Thinker in the universe, that is, if you really want to be moral.
Notice, I didn't say you should do what God wills or you will suffer damnation. That is pure self-interest, not having anything to do with becoming a good moral agent, unless, of course, self-interest of this sort prevents you from becoming an evil ethical agent. |
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ape
Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 3324
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| Post: #5 Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: Atheism: let's clear a few things up |
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| pjkeeley wrote: |
Atheism is not a belief. It is a lack of belief. To be precise, it is a lack of belief in gods. Nor is it a religion, in the same way that baldness is not a hair colour. It is not a belief that gods do not exist, as many people seem to think. |
Hi PJK!
By which you, of course, mean that atheism is a belief in no belief in gods! Or, atheism is belief in lack of belief in gods! Or, atheism is belief in no belief in gods! Or atheism is a lack of belief in belief in gods!)
| pjkeeley wrote: |
Please, no more straw men arguments. At least make an effort to understand what atheism is and where atheists are coming from. |
As an honorary atheist, I love atheists as myself, --and so love and respect you personally PJK, --and so first understanding myself I do understand what atheism is, and so know exactly where atheists are coming from! I hope that you remain atheist all your life! |
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JPhillips
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 207
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| Post: #6 Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:51 pm Post subject: Atheism |
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pjkeeley
| Quote: |
| Do you mean to suggest that the only thing that is keeping you from cheating on your wife or girlfriend if you knew you could get away with it is your belief that God is watching? |
That is a fair question. Like you said, you can't speak for all atheists, and I can't speak for all people who believe as I do. I believe in karma and reincarnation so I believe everything I do that is morally wrong will come back to bite me. I also believe it is in my own personal best interests to strive to become a better person because it will pay off not just in this life, but the next, or in afterlife. I am almost 60. If I thought after I died I would cease to exist, I might be more easily tempted to have a fling with a younger woman. Not saying I would not feel any guilt. So yes, if I was an atheist, I believe it would be more likely I would screw up. I believe I would live life more selfishly.
I believe we are all born with a conscience. It comes with our soul. Therefore, I believe you would have morals if you believe in God or not. A belief in God just gives you more reason to listen to your conscience.
| Quote: |
| I am in my twenties and was not raised into any religion, though I chose to attend a Catholic school in my teens and for a time considered myself vaguely religious. Not anymore. I hope I will remain a life-long atheist like Sartre, Camus or Russel. What makes you think I won't? |
Why would you hope that you will die and cease to exist? Why I think you won't is based on my own personal experiences. I have experienced many things in my life that have convinced me there is a God and that he intervenes in our lives. My personal experiences are just that; my personal experiences. They can be of no benefit to anyone but me. You will have similar experiences of your own that should cause you to question your atheism. These experiences will add up over the course of your lifetime. If you are always honest with yourself and don't attempt to rationalize them away, I strongly believe you will rethink your position later on in your life.
I would like to stress that there are those people who believe in God who will try to convince other people to believe in God not to impose their will, but because they think they are truly helping. If you don't want to hear it, just say so. When an atheist is trying to convince someone who believes in God that God does not exist, who is he helping by planting a seed of doubt in that person's mind? Is it just to prove intellectual superiority? Some of us have such strong faith that there is nothing you could ever say to convince us there is no God. But others do not. If that person is truly happier believing in God, why not leave him alone?
I do understand why you would attack people who would use religion to teach intolerance of other religions. Jesus never asked the Catholic Church to kill in His name. You should not confuse organized religion and a belief in God. |
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OTavern
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 413
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| Post: #7 Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:28 pm Post subject: Re: Atheism |
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| JPhillips wrote: |
| Jesus never asked the Catholic Church to kill in His name. You should not confuse organized religion and a belief in God. |
By its own definition, the Catholic Church is the "Body of Christ" with Christ as its head. The "body" by this definition would be the members that are controlled by the will/mind of Christ. So either Christ committed these acts through his "Body" or rebel members not doing the will of Christ as the head of the Body committed them. So either Jesus did command/commit these acts you speak of or He did not, in which case His Body, i.e., the Catholic Church did not do them, though the acts may have been done by individuals claiming or pretending to be, but not actually, part of His Body. |
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JPhillips
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 207
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| Post: #8 Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:14 am Post subject: Atheism |
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Regardless, the Catholic Church and well as the fundamentalists in some of the other Christian denominations have driven people away. Based on what I know about Jesus Christ, I just do not think He would have been pleased by some of the things that were done in His name.
I know the Catholic Church is not the same as it was those long years ago. Other than intolerance for other religions and its' stance against the use of birth control I would not have much to complain about with the modern day Catholic Church. I do not accept the belief that any human being, not even the Pope, is any more holy or less human than the rest of us. The Catholic Church or any other Church is not infallible and must be willing to admit when it has made mistakes, or it will continue to lose followers.
It is a shame that so many people point to the history of wrongful things done in the name of Jesus Christ throughout history, as reasons for denouncing Christianity and worse, becoming atheists.
Another point I have made before and would like to re-emphasize; I believe in God very strongly, but I do not believe that only Catholics or only Christians are going to heaven.
Last edited by JPhillips on Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:27 am; edited 2 times in total |
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pjkeeley
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 635
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| Post: #9 Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| OTavern wrote: |
| That depends on your perspective of God. If God is all-knowing and all-loving, the quintessential moral being, then His opinion would certainly count. |
Yes, but I'm not convinced that God's opinion would count more than the sheer fact that other people are affected by the consequences of your actions. It's those people that should be first in mind, not God, even assuming God exists and even assuming God is the source of moral truths.
| JPhillips wrote: |
| Why would you hope that you will die and cease to exist? |
Why would you want to exist forever? Just thinking about it makes me feel trapped. I appreciate life all the more because I know it is short and could end at any time, which makes it a very precious thing indeed. If I knew that some kind of paradise awaited me when I die, why should I care about this life? Of course, oblivion is sometimes a terrifying thing to ponder. But I find the idea of eternal life even less appealing. Think of death as the final melancholy chord that makes a bittersweet song resonate in a way that is far more beautiful than it would be without it. |
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JPhillips
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 207
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| Post: #10 Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:17 am Post subject: |
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pjkeeley
Seems to me you may have a narrow perspective of what living for eternity means. Try to appreciate it from a different perspective, from the perspective of an entity who is much more evolved than human and without any human frailties. Think of eternally evolving and learning. Imagine having new, wonderful and amazing experiences every single day for eternity, such as zooming throughout the universe by just thinking about it. Or creating worlds of your own (not life, that is God's domain) in which to play and explore. Imagine doing it in participation with other entities you love and who love you, and who would never hurt or betray you because it is no longer the way of the heavenly existence. Imagine heaven is exactly what you wish it to be. In fact, accept that what it will be like is incomprehensible but far better than anything you can imagine.
You should care about this life because you were put here for a reason. Even if you believe things will be much better after death and at the end of all your reincarnations (as some of us believe), you should accept that you have an obligation to spend time on earth in order to evolve spiritually. You should make the best of it and enjoy it as much as you can while still living a moral life.
Also, God's opinion is that other people are affected by the consequences of your actions, and it is those people that should be first in your mind. Whether you believe Jesus was God or not, this was His message.
What could you possible do for God other than this? How could you possibly hope to please Him more? |
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OTavern
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 413
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| Post: #11 Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Atheism |
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| JPhillips wrote: |
Another point I have made before and would like to re-emphasize; I believe in God very strongly, but I do not believe that only Catholics or only Christians are going to heaven. |
This is not Catholic doctrine. It is a mistaken interpretation. Even Paul says that "pagans" who follow their consciences will see God. They may not know or believe they are, but that is incidental.
| Quote: |
| It is not listening to the Law but keeping it that will make people holy in the sight of God. For instance, pagans who have never heard of the Law but are led by reason to do what the Law commands, may not actually "possess" the Law, but they can be said to "be" the Law. They can point to the substance of the Law engraved on their hearts - they can call a witness, that is, their own conscience... on the day when...God, through Jesus Christ, judges the secrets of mankind.(Romans 2:14-15) |
Last edited by OTavern on Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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James S Saint
Joined: 14 Oct 2009
Posts: 668
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| Post: #12 Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:54 am Post subject: |
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Agnosticism == lack of belief/knowing
"a-gnostic" - "non-knowing"
Atheism == belief in non-theism/"no-God"
"a-theism" - "non-theism"
The guile of feigning innocence by claiming mere non-belief is a tiring ploy, commonly Jewish in origin. |
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Alun
Joined: 11 Jul 2009
Posts: 1008
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| Post: #13 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| James S Saint wrote: |
| The guile of feigning innocence by claiming mere non-belief is a tiring ploy, commonly Jewish in origin. |
What the hell? (1) pjkeeley isn't "feigning innocence," he's clarifying his position. Atheism is not necessarily an affirmative declaration about the universe; it is just a belief status. (2) What the hell are you referring to Jews for?
| JPhillips wrote: |
| I can get pretty defensive as well as offensive sometimes after I read comments from the new atheists of which I mentioned in my post, when I feel my beliefs are being ridiculed. |
When you ask people to agree with you, then you open yourself up to ridicule.
I'm just going to say that, as a theist, I agree with the OP.
_________________
"I have nothing new to teach the world" -Mohandas "Mahatma" Gandhi |
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Santini
Joined: 20 Nov 2009
Posts: 349
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| Post: #14 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| OTavern wrote: |
| pjkeeley wrote: |
| The fact is, there are many reasons to act morally, and the idea that God might be watching us is to me one of the least convincing reasons, even if I were to assume that he exists. |
That depends on your perspective of God. If God is all-knowing and all-loving, the quintessential moral being, then His opinion would certainly count. |
Do you believe that God is also all-powerful?
I don't see how God can be both "all-loving" and "all-powerful" unless one uses an extremely queer definition for one of those two terms.
How could an all-loving, all-powerful being allow a newborn to enter the world only to suffer almost beyond belief for three days before dying?
How could an all-loving, all powerful God allow anyone to suffer for eternity in hell? (And please don't say that this is an individual's choice. NO human being would freely choose to suffer for eternity in hell. It's ludicrous to pretend that someone would.) |
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pjkeeley
Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Posts: 635
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| Post: #15 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| James S Saint wrote: |
Agnosticism == lack of belief/knowing
"a-gnostic" - "non-knowing"
Atheism == belief in non-theism/"no-God"
"a-theism" - "non-theism"
The guile of feigning innocence by claiming mere non-belief is a tiring ploy, commonly Jewish in origin. |
As Alun pointed out, I am not feigning innocence of anything, merely pointing out facts. (and what's with the reference to Jews?)
You were right to define a-theism as literally non-theism: theism is a belief in God, so a-theism then is non-belief in God. You were wrong however to equate that with belief in no God. To be clear: no belief in God is not the same as belief in no God. To suggest that it is is to make a rather basic category error, something taught in introductory logic classes. This applies to anything, not just theism.
Example: let's call 'going to work today' P and 'staying at home' Q. Not going to work, represented as -P, isn't the same as Q. -P and Q overlap, because Q necessitates -P (you can't stay at home without not going to work). But -P also overlaps with other categories; for example, 'going to the park'. So it is possible to have -P without Q. They are not always equivalent.
To say that belief in God and belief in no God are the only two possible categories here is a false dichotomy. There is at least one other category: it is possible to neither believe in God's existence nor to believe that God does not exist. People in this position would usually consider themselves agnostic (which they are, since as you rightly pointed out, gnosticism refers to knowledge) but technically they are also atheists, since all that atheism requires is lack of belief in God's existence.
This would all be less confusing if there were a word for the belief that God does not exist. Note however that the most that we could say of such a group is that they share a metaphysical belief. This would not constitute a religion since every agreed upon definition of religion contains spiritual or supernatural characteristics, even if there is no belief in a deity. Similarly, if a group emerged that professed belief in the metaphysical possibility of human free-will, but no other necessary beliefs (perhaps because they considered free-will to be natural in origin, but as yet unproven by science), they would not be classified as a religion.
Thus, atheism is not a belief nor a religion. Even so-called 'strong' atheism, in which there is a belief that God does not exist, is not a religion by any sensible definition of that word. |
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