Welcome to the Philosophy Forums! If you already are a member, please log in. If you are not a member, please join the forums now. It's completely free, and all viewpoints are welcome.
| View previous topic :: View next topic :: |
James S Saint
Joined: 14 Oct 2009
Posts: 668
|
Post: #31  Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:12 am Post subject: Re: Atheist |
  |
|
|
| ape wrote: |
| TJ spoke out against both church/God and state/Caesar when each is or either is in Hate or in Loathing of the other: "Turning, then, from this loathsome combination of church and state, and weeping over the follies of our fellow men,.." while JC spoke of 'rendering to God what is God's and to Czar what is Caesar's' where God pays and commands the Church to pay the State Love and Respect: Romans 13:1-8. |
"TJ"?? Sounds like a friend.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Scott
Site Admin
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 1710
|
| Post: #32 Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
I think there are many atheists who are not fundamentalist atheists just as there are many theists who only casually believe in god(s).
I think the vast majority of atheists do not have some sort of idol worship for science and logic anymore than the vast majority of theists.
The scientific method is well-respected, not in some over-idolized way, by almost everyone. Empirical evidence, data gained from controlled experiments, and theories validated by the results of controlled experiments are compelling to reasonable people whether atheist or theist.
Different people can reasonably have a different standard of belief. Granted, some people are inconsistent with themselves in that they are willing to believe some things with less evidence and then refuse to believe other things for which there is an equal or greater amount of evidence. But even two reasonable people can have two different standards of belief with each one being consistent with itself.
As for having a less skeptical standard of belief, I am sure there are many people people who do not believe in god but believe in other things without scientific evidence or without much scientific evidence, such as ghosts, alien abductions, Big Foot, conspiracy theories, psychics, psychokinesis or magic. Indeed, a young child brought up in a place that never even mentioned the idea of god(s) would presumably not believe in any gods but would believe in Santa Claus. Such a child would not be idolizing science, and the child is an extreme of how grownup atheists do not idolize science anymore than theists.
As for dangerousness, I will grant that fundamentalism of any kind is dangerous compared to open-mindedness and conducive to biased irrationalities. But I do not see atheists as being any more fundamentalist than theists, and many atheists are just as willing to believe things without scientific evidence as the average theist. Also, I do not think one's having a stricter standard of belief that requires evidence to believe any given proposition is dangerous or tantamount to idolizing science.
_________________
Online Philosophy Club - Please tell me how to improve this website! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
James S Saint
Joined: 14 Oct 2009
Posts: 668
|
| Post: #33 Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
Idol worship == "I only respect this one fixed method"
They carve figures out of gold because the figure represents a specific fixed method for doing something, "This way is the only way". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alun
Joined: 11 Jul 2009
Posts: 1008
|
| Post: #34 Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Atheism |
|
|
|
| JPhillips wrote: |
| the doctrine of atheism |
What is "the doctrine of atheism," and who do you believe subscribes to it?
| OTavern wrote: |
| I am very certain that if we made a list from Jesus' own words of the essential qualities of a true follower, those qualities would describe relatively few people in any country. |
You ought to know better than to employ the No True Scotsman fallacy. Obviously someone who actually demonstrated such strict moral principles would be more trustworthy--but those principles do not necessarily have anything to do with Jesus, other than that Jesus supports them. I.e. none of the ones relating to trustworthiness would preclude atheism--the only one that does is respecting God.
_________________
"I have nothing new to teach the world" -Mohandas "Mahatma" Gandhi |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
James S Saint
Joined: 14 Oct 2009
Posts: 668
|
| Post: #35 Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Atheism |
|
|
|
| Alun wrote: |
| I.e. none of the ones relating to trustworthiness would preclude atheism--the only one that does is respecting God. |
One of the most common definition of God == Truth itself.
Thus he who does not respect God, does not respect truth == untrustworthy.
-----------
An even higher definition of God == What/Whoever dictates what absolutely can and cannot happen.
Thus he who does not respect God, does not respect what can or cannot happen (Principles/Truth/Rationale) == Irresponsible == untrustworthy.
-----------
Another common definition of God == Who/Whatever created all things and thus creates all things.
Thus he who does not respect God, does not respect by what means things are created or come to be == Irresponsible == untrustworthy.
-----------
Some Atheists believe the most simple minded definition of God gained by the most common non-thinkers == "Grand Cosmic Sky Muffin".
Thus he who makes his decisions of what is or isn't by gaining his understanding from the non-thinking level of population == Irresponsible == untrustworthy.
-----------
But more often the Atheist has no definition for "God", yet declares that such doesn't exist.
Thus he who concludes something without knowing what he is actually talking about is irrational == untrustworthy.
-----------
Did I leave any out? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JPhillips
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 207
|
| Post: #36 Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:36 am Post subject: Atheists |
|
|
|
Alun
Doctrine of atheism to me would apply to those who hold the view that there is no God in any sense of the word. The ones who subscribe to this doctrine are those who believe everything is the result of one big cosmic joke. The Big Bang was a freak occurrence. We are nothing more than super human computers that evolved by accident from a lifeless single atom. We will die and our short existence will come to a permanent end. How in the world there is any semblance of order at all in this chaotic, senseless, accidental universe, God only knows.
I made the assumption that since I know if I was a hardcore atheist, I would be less virtuous, this would be true of anyone else. Even though we all have a conscience, the belief in a reasonable and truly just God serves to reinforce our moral beliefs as well as have a positive influence on our behavior.
In regards to issues of trust, I realize I was guilty of stereotyping due to my prejudices regarding atheists. Even if what I said were true of most atheists, it is wrong to stereotype all atheists and to not allow the possibility for any exceptions. Also, it has since occurred to me that we are all born with a conscience because God created us with a conscience and a free will. Whether we realize this or not is inconsequential.
Last edited by JPhillips on Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OTavern
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 413
|
| Post: #37 Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Atheism |
|
|
|
| Alun wrote: |
| OTavern wrote: |
| I am very certain that if we made a list from Jesus' own words of the essential qualities of a true follower, those qualities would describe relatively few people in any country. |
You ought to know better than to employ the No True Scotsman fallacy. |
That was not my point. In identifying anything there must be certain essential qualities that x must present in order to be classed as an example of y. A tree, to be a tree must have certain characteristics. A Christian, to be a Christian must have certain characteristics or else the term is meaningless. Scotsman, is defined as someone born in Scotland. That characteristic is undeniable and essential. If you deny that quality as defining a Scotsman, then the term becomes meaningless.
The term "Christian," to be meaningful must have certain defining characteristics. Christ himself set these out as the qualities of a "true" disciple and these are further spelled out in the New Testament. Once these qualities are identified, then it is possible to tell whether someone more or less meets these qualities. That the term is somewhat open to interpretation does not mean anything goes. The term rational could describe some humans and not others. Individuals can be more or less rational by whether or not they meet these characteristics. A Christian who does not meet certain basic criteria, despite their claims to the contrary cannot be Christian, otherwise the term is meaningless. If anyone merely claiming to be Christian, is so ipso facto, then how does that make "Christian" a meaningful term? I am a tree, does that make me a tree?
| Alun wrote: |
| Obviously someone who actually demonstrated such strict moral principles would be more trustworthy--but those principles do not necessarily have anything to do with Jesus, |
Sure they do, they define what makes someone a true follower. Jesus made precisely those claims.
| Alun wrote: |
| other than that Jesus supports them. I.e. none of the ones relating to trustworthiness would preclude atheism--the only one that does is respecting God. |
I never said they did preclude atheism - that is your conclusion. Having two eyes is a characteristic of a human being, but that does not preclude other beings from having two eyes. That Christians would act in a certain way does not preclude others, like atheists, from behaving likewise. It is having all of the essential characteristics that determines membership. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Santini
Joined: 20 Nov 2009
Posts: 349
|
| Post: #38 Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Atheism |
|
|
|
Do you know the traits that one must possess to qualify as a "true" Christian, OTavern?
If you do, list a few. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Juice
Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1966
|
| Post: #39 Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
Santini-List traits of a Christian. One who follows. To do so would be shallow and materialistic. Like stepping in someone else's footsteps who keeps falling off the path.
What I am most intrigued by are things I cannot do that others can. Like drawing or painting and singing.
How to be like Christ? The last step is when you finally realize that you can't.
After that the only trait is loving God.
_________________
When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.
An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis
Fight the illusion! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
OTavern
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 413
|
| Post: #40 Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: Atheism |
|
|
|
| Santini wrote: |
Do you know the traits that one must possess to qualify as a "true" Christian, OTavern?
If you do, list a few. |
Generally a Christian is one who follows faithfully the two principal commandments: loving God with their whole heart and their neighbours "as themselves." (Matthew 22:34)
This means specifically, someone who:
1. Fully allows themselves to be "known" by God and therefore known to themselves - with absolutely no deception. "I know my own and my own know me." (John 10:14) "God is light; there is no darkness in him at all. If we say that we are in union with God while we are living in darkness, we are lying because we are not living the truth." (1 John 1:5)
2. Living the "same kind of life" as Jesus lived. (1 John 2:5-6)
3. Belief that Jesus is God. "The man who denies that Jesus is the Christ - he is the liar." (1 John 2:22)
4. Being "detached" from self, possessions and need for power. "Anyone who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life." (John 12:25)(Mark: 8:34-38)(Matt 19:27)
5. Faithfully "acting" on the words of Jesus (Luke 6:47) by a readiness to give up their own life for the sake of the Gospel or carrying out the will of God above their own. (Mark 10:28)(Mark 3:35)
6. Someone who "loves" their enemies and freely gives to or serves those in need. (Luke 6:27-34) (Mark 4:24) (Matt 20:28)
7. Someone who does not judge others (their internal motives or state) or makes claims about them that only God would know (i.e., their eternal destiny). Notice this is not the same as judging the rightness or wrongness of an act - that is required just to be ethical. (Matt 18:15, 7:1-5)
8. Someone who faithfully keeps all the commandments (Mark 10:20) (Matt 19:18; 5:20-48) and especially the Golden Rule. (Matt 7:12)
9. Willingness to forgive. (Matt 18:21)
10. Faith or trust "in God" above themselves (Matt 6:25), their possessions (Matt 6:24), their government, their society. (Matt 21:22)
11. Someone who is gentle, poor in spirit, merciful, pure in heart, a peacemaker, likely to be persecuted in the cause of right, who is hungry to do what is right and is supernaturally joy-filled (Matt 5:1-12)
These traits are encompassed in the three theological virtues
Faith - steadfast in belief
Hope - expectation of and desire of receiving from God; refraining from despair and of not giving up
Charity - selfless, unconditional, and voluntary loving-kindness such as helping one's neighbors.
and four cardinal virtues
Prudence - able to judge between actions with regard to appropriate actions at a given time
Justice - proper moderation between self-interest and the rights and needs of others
Restraint or Temperance - practicing self-control, abstention, and moderation
Courage or Fortitude - forbearance, endurance, and ability to confront fear and uncertainty, or intimidation
Clearly, "being a Christian" is something that is not easy to do and likely a true Christian would be the first to say truthfully that they are "not even close."
| Juice wrote: |
How to be like Christ? The last step is when you finally realize that you can't.
After that the only trait is loving God. |
I disagree. The last step is letting the physician (Christ) do His work. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Juice
Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1966
|
| Post: #41 Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
OT-I stand corrected. Confirming that I am a work in progress. God Bless!
_________________
When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.
An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis
Fight the illusion! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
James S Saint
Joined: 14 Oct 2009
Posts: 668
|
| Post: #42 Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
All you have to do to be Christian is to sincerely want to be and no, that is not hard at all. Those principles that Tavern pointed out are merely the goals that you are striving for once already a Christian.
The thing that makes it difficult to make progress is only the others trying to get you not to try. Leave Christians alone, and they don't have a problem. But of course, others (Secular atheists, Jews, Muslims, Pagans) won't do that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nick_A
Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Posts: 1461
|
| Post: #43 Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
| James S Saint wrote: |
All you have to do to be Christian is to sincerely want to be and no, that is not hard at all. Those principles that Tavern pointed out are merely the goals that you are striving for once already a Christian.
The thing that makes it difficult to make progress is only the others trying to get you not to try. Leave Christians alone, and they don't have a problem. But of course, others (Secular atheists, Jews, Muslims, Pagans) won't do that. |
You are defining a politician but not a Christian.
A politician proclaims to defend the constitution but does the opposite. Much of Christrendom exhibits the same hypocrisy but a Christian practices what they preach. This is why there are so few Christians and so many politicians.
_________________
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Last edited by Nick_A on Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Juice
Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1966
|
| Post: #44 Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
Nick-It is not really hypocrisy, but a lack of reality. A Christian is no better or no worse than anyone else. It is when some Christians give the impression to have some kind of advantage over others that provides that impression. Many believe that just because someone says they are a Christian that means they are going to heaven and others aren't. That just being a Christian gives them an automatic in. The truth is that no one can prejudge, not even themselves. This is how Christians must manage their lives and show charity to others.
I can't stress that enough.
The best any Christian can do is live as best he can through Gods Wisdom, Goodness and Guidance.
Naturally one must confess to Gods power for the salvation Jesus has offered himself up for us.
I am really sorry that some Christians may have given the wrong impression.
JSS-We wouldn't be Christians if left alone.
_________________
When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.
An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis
Fight the illusion! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
James S Saint
Joined: 14 Oct 2009
Posts: 668
|
| Post: #45 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
| Nick_A wrote: |
You are defining a politician but not a Christian.
A politician proclaims to defend the constitution but does the opposite. Much of Christrendom exhibits the same hypocrisy but a Christian practices what they preach. This is why there are so few Christians and so many politicians. |
No you are being presumptuous in thinking that such a statement CAN be from a politician, therefore he must be merely politicking.
I said nothing of what a person might claim to be. The entire Spanish Inquisition arose by Jews pretending to be Christian priests and thus requiring Rome to have an "Inquiry".
What I said was that the SINCERE desire to follow Jesus' teachings makes you a Christian.
Sincerity and politics have little to do with each other.
| Juice wrote: |
| JSS-We wouldn't be Christians if left alone. |
That statement would be true of many gatherings, Christianity is not one of them. But how would you know? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|
|
|
|
