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Jerry
Joined: 13 Nov 2009
Posts: 56
Location: N.C., USA
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Post: #16  Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:22 am Post subject: |
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Respecting job and compensation men and women should be equal; the assignment must be in qualification and aptnes to perform the work. House work should be shared.
One matter I can not see equality in is children. When my wife was handed her baby after birth there was an obvious contact of the two that can not be challenged by a man. It is simply not in us. I don't know why, but I do know it is not a taught thing - it is completely natural. I never attended to my children as carefully as thier mother did.
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“None thinks he sins enough unless he sins a little further than the laws permit.”
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ape
Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 3324
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| Post: #17 Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Belinda wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Feminism is Love for females out of Hate for males just as machismo is Love for males out of Hate for females |
Rubbish! Many men are feminists. |
Dear Belinda, that's exactly why the definition is gender-free! It applies to both genders!
99% of all males hate themselves as female and yet ALSO love females! So those men are ALSO hating females as themselves, (hating themselves as male of course), and ALSO loving themselves as female! Can you connect the dots so that I keep this as short as possible?
That's why 99% of men are double-minded or double-hearted: both loving and hating themselves as both male and female and so both loving and hating women!
And it applies to women too: 99% of women hate WEAK men and yet ALSO love men: so those women are ALSO hating themselves as men and ALSO hating men! That's why women are ALSO double-minded or double-hearted: both loving and hating themselves as female and as male, and hating males as female and as male!
Most men and most women have not yet figured out that each gender is both male and female and so they can't hate or love one without also hating the other--automatically! Plus there is no difference or there is only a difference without any distinction between a weak female and a female weakling, nor between a weak male and a male weakling!
Now, if that is rubbish, I better not take the garbage out nor take the garb that is aged out!
| Belinda wrote: |
I'd guess that all decent and intelligent men are feminists, in our western society, anyway. |
Yes, all men made decent and intelligent by Love of self as a woman and so who love women as males love themselves are decent and intelligent: That Love's fine! But for a man to be feminist in Hate of men is just as bad for a woman to be machismo in Hate of women! It's like blacks loving whites out of Hate for blacks, or blacks being for blacks n Hate of whites, or like whites being for whites in Hate of blacks or whites being for blacks in Hate of whites!
There is no difference between a black female and a female black, nor between a weak male and male weakling! So we can't hate one with hating the other.
| Belinda wrote: |
Many, or most, feminist women love and feel affection for men. |
That Love is fine! But all of those feminist women ALSO hate themselves as weak men and as weak women so they must also hate as weak the men they also love! How many of those feminist women wd answer 'yes' to these questions:
Do you love weak men?
Do you love yourself as a weak woman?
Do you love yourself as a fool?
Do you love foolish men or male fools? Hmmmmm
| Belinda wrote: |
Feminism is love for men as well as love for women, |
Yes, THAT LOVE IS FINE, but go on: and FEMINISM IS ALSO Hate of women as WEAK men and so IS ALSO Hate of men as WEAK women!
| Belinda wrote: |
because feminism would free men from paranoid fear of loss of power. |
But feminism that is based on Hate of weakness and of fear can NOT and would NOT accomplish that goal and must in fact accomplish the exact hated OPPOSITE-- rechaining both men and women to Hate of the other opposite--when THAT feminism is also based on Hate of weakness and on Hate of fear and on Hate of weak men and on Hate of foolish women and on Hate of loss and on Hate of losers -WHICH IS WHY MEN FEAR LOSS OF POWER IN THE FIRST PLACE--since there is no difference between a weak foolish woman and a female weakling or feamle fool. Hate of what is feared is Hate of the who or what AND Hate of the fear, and so compounds the fear into double fear or phobia!qed.
Example:
When I got married to my female wife who is a woman, I wd have been insulted if you called me a woman and my womanly wife wd have beaten you up for calling me who she is: a woman!!!!!!!So I both loved myself as a woman which is why I loved my wife, AND I also hated myself as a woman which is why I hated being called a woman and hated my woman as myself, AND SO why I also both loved my wife and also hated my wife! Do you see? And here comes the kicker: And the ONLY reason WHY my woman and my wife fell for my Hatred of myself as a woman, which was who she was, was because she also hated herself as woman and so also latently hated me as a woman!!!!!while also loving herself as a woman and as a man which is why she also loved me!!!!! Can you figure out what craziness this crazy idea of self-Hate led us (and led and leads all singles and couples) into?
I have since been loving myself as both a man and a woman so that I love my wife as a woman and as a man as myself. So if you now call me a woman, I wd be honoured since I am also one, my mom is one, my wife is one and my dtr and gr-dtr and a host of female friends are ones!
Present Single Exhibit A of example above:
| Simon says... wrote: |
| If someone calls me a girl I am insulted, not because there is anything wrong with being a woman but because I'd like to be called what I am, a man. |
Now dear Belinda, do you ALSO love your self as a man, and also love your man as a woman? |
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Belinda
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| Post: #18 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
99% of all males hate themselves as female and yet ALSO love females! So those men are ALSO hating females as themselves, (hating themselves as male of course), and ALSO loving themselves as female! Can you connect the dots so that I keep this as short as possible?
That's why 99% of men are double-minded or double-hearted: both loving and hating themselves as both male and female and so both loving and hating women!
And it applies to women too: 99% of women hate WEAK men and yet ALSO love men: so those women are ALSO hating themselves as men and ALSO hating men! That's why women are ALSO double-minded or double-hearted: both loving and hating themselves as female and as male, and hating males as female and as male! |
Ape, I dont know where you got the 99% . I have been told that men with soft temperaments and appearances are more desired by women than formerly. Fashions change. Male models are different physical types from what they used to be.
Most men and most women have not yet figured out that each gender is both male and female and so they can't hate or love one without also hating the other--automatically! Plus there is no difference or there is only a difference without any distinction between a weak female and a female weakling, nor between a weak male and a male weakling! [/quote]
I agree that each gender is both masculine and feminine, and I'd also have been told that each sex is part other sex, indeed some individuals are of
in- between sex. Sexual preference is not always predictable either.
| Quote: |
| Yes, all men made decent and intelligent by Love of self as a woman and so who love women as males love themselves are decent and intelligent: That Love's fine! But for a man to be feminist in Hate of men is just as bad for a woman to be machismo in Hate of women! It's like blacks loving whites out of Hate for blacks, or blacks being for blacks n Hate of whites, or like whites being for whites in Hate of blacks or whites being for blacks in Hate of whites! |
I agree. I believe that there are women who think of themselves as feminists who are as you describe.
| Quote: |
Do you love weak men?
Do you love yourself as a weak woman?
Do you love yourself as a fool?
Do you love foolish men or male fools? Hmmmmm |
I am not a paragon of virtue, Ape 
| Quote: |
| Belinda wrote: |
because feminism would free men from paranoid fear of loss of power. |
But feminism that is based on Hate of weakness and of fear can NOT and would NOT accomplish that goal and must in fact accomplish the exact hated OPPOSITE-- rechaining both men and women to Hate of the other opposite--when THAT feminism is also based on Hate of weakness and on Hate of fear and on Hate of weak men and on Hate of foolish women and on Hate of loss and on Hate of losers -WHICH IS WHY MEN FEAR LOSS OF POWER IN THE FIRST PLACE--since there is no difference between a weak foolish woman and a female weakling or feamle fool. Hate of what is feared is Hate of the who or what AND Hate of the fear, and so compounds the fear into double fear or phobia!qed.
Example:
When I got married to my female wife who is a woman, I wd have been insulted if you called me a woman and my womanly wife wd have beaten you up for calling me who she is: a woman!!!!!!!So I both loved myself as a woman which is why I loved my wife, AND I also hated myself as a woman which is why I hated being called a woman and hated my woman as myself, AND SO why I also both loved my wife and also hated my wife! Do you see? And here comes the kicker: And the ONLY reason WHY my woman and my wife fell for my Hatred of myself as a woman, which was who she was, was because she also hated herself as woman and so also latently hated me as a woman!!!!!while also loving herself as a woman and as a man which is why she also loved me!!!!! Can you figure out what craziness this crazy idea of self-Hate led us (and led and leads all singles and couples) into?
I have since been loving myself as both a man and a woman so that I love my wife as a woman and as a man as myself. So if you now call me a woman, I wd be honoured since I am also one, my mom is one, my wife is one and my dtr and gr-dtr and a host of female friends are ones!
Present Single Exhibit A of example above:
| Simon says... wrote: |
| If someone calls me a girl I am insulted, not because there is anything wrong with being a woman but because I'd like to be called what I am, a man. |
Now dear Belinda, do you ALSO love your self as a man, and also love your man as a woman? |
[/quote]
Ape,I am less interested in gender preferences and conflicts than I am in protecting women from exploitation and cruelty.
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Alun
Joined: 11 Jul 2009
Posts: 1008
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| Post: #19 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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I think feminism can suffer form the same problem that affirmative action suffers from in general. As an analogy, here's a great video of an interview with Morgan Freeman:
I think the same sentiment can be expressed about feminism and females; at some point, it just becomes condescending itself. Women don't need social insulation or handicaps in the same way that I don't think black people are helped by a month dedicated to their history. All this treatment does is feed the cycle of singling the group out--making people identify others based on their race or sex, instead of on their identity.
On the other hand, there are, as I think at least Scott said, far worse issues of sexism than of racism. Sexual abuse is heavily weighted against women, and I think this is due to more than just testosterone--it really does seem to stem from an ignorant and chauvinistic view of how women think and what women's roles should be. So I think "feminism" should really just be "egalitarianism," but whatever it's called, it is still important.
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Jerry
Joined: 13 Nov 2009
Posts: 56
Location: N.C., USA
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| Post: #20 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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Alun;
| Quote: |
| Sexual abuse is heavily weighted against women, and I think this is due to more than just testosterone--it really does seem to stem from an ignorant and chauvinistic view of how women think and what women's roles should be. |
Nonsense!
Sexual abuse is weighted against women because men are stronger than women. That is why women utilize coyness in relationship with men. Some men, those who have no other attractive features, will rape a woman. Women do desire to be wanted so long as she sees that man as capable to providing for her and her children. A woman does not desire to be raped by a pseudo man who does not seem to possess the characteristics she sees as a protector and provider.
Now I have done the worst of sins, attempt to speak for a woman. I will pay dearly in some following responses, but I have my understanding.
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Scott
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| Post: #21 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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Jerry,
I do not think more rapes are committed against women because they tend to be physically weaker. Plenty of rapists and sexual predators are physically small people without much fighting skills or muscle mass. More importantly, your hypothesis would not explain why women are targeted more specifically as the victim of crimes of domination (e.g. sexual molestation and serial torture-murder) more than other crimes not go for more petty crimes like bar fights and robbery.
| Jerry wrote: |
| Some men, those who have no other attractive features, will rape a woman. |
No, rape isn't about sex; it's about power and violence. People do not rape because they get too horny and can't get laid. They rape for the same reasons any psychopath may commit a psychopathic act like abuse or serial murder. They have pathological rage, low self-image, traumatizing history of abuse, or so forth. Rapists want to rape, not have consensual sex.
Men make themselves feel like men not just by getting laid, but by violently dominating women and forcing sex upon on them.
I think it's safe to assume that commonplace sexism against women and the systemic subjugation of women in the mainstream contributes to the sexual victimization of women as a way for men to feed their violent, power-hungry insecure egos. Indeed, in some places in the world, women are so second-class that it is at least legal de facto to rape women. I remember reading about a woman--I think in Somalia--who was stoned to death for reporting a rape. According to conservatism there, getting raped is the woman's fault, and it is criminal for her to complain about it.
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ape
Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 3324
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| Post: #22 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Belinda wrote: |
Ape, I dont know where you got the 99% . |
Belinda, all you have to do is think of how many men wd answer Yes to this question:
Do you love yourself as a woman or as female or as feminine?
Qed.
| Belinda wrote: |
I have been told that men with soft temperaments and appearances are more desired by women than formerly. |
That has always been true since all women love to be treated with tender loving care of TLC! But those same women despise weak men or milk-toast men and love and want strong men! See? But when men try to be strong all the time, those very women then despise them as bullies! While those same men who love and want obedient wives also despise pushovers and yes-women and blonds with no brains, then despise those women as buthches and b*tches and as trying to wear the pants when they try not to be walkovers!
See how no one can win when we are double-minded?
| Belinda wrote: |
Fashions change. Male models are different physical types from what they used to be.
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But attitudes remain and have remained the same since no one has gone there!
| Belinda wrote: |
I agree that each gender is both masculine and feminine, and I'd also have been told that each sex is part other sex, indeed some individuals are of
in- between sex. Sexual preference is not always predictable either. |
There you go! Exactly! Xlnt!
| Belinda wrote: |
I agree. I believe that there are women who think of themselves as feminists who are as you describe.
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Story done!
| Belinda wrote: |
I am not a paragon of virtue, Ape
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You've got all the potential to take you kinetic! You have the Love to make a virtue of any vice, and VIRTUE doubla!
| Belinda wrote: |
Ape,I am less interested in gender preferences and conflicts than I am in protecting women from exploitation and cruelty. |
Xlnt! And the first cruelty and exploitation shown towards females of every kind is the Cruelty of Hate for self as female by any male or expecially by any female! This can only be countered by the Kindness and the Exploits of Love! Guess who most teach their male kids to stop being a sissy and stop a acting like momma's boy and like a girl and be a man and man up? Their mothers! Guess who is harder in their judgments on women? Other women! See? Guess who allow their husbands and fathers of their dtrs to teach her dtrs that girls are less valued than boys by teaching them that it is insulting to call a boy a girl? Mothers! That's why my wife fell for the lie from me that I really loved her when I hated myself as who she was! Wd my wife have fallen for me if I hated myself as her color and race and she was that very color and race! No way! She wd have seen thru that! Which is why Hatred for females is endlessly worse than Hatred for another race! My wife, like 99% of women worldwide, was cruelly exploited by her parents with such an idea that wd cause her to self-defeatingly beat people up for calling me a woman, a woman that she was!!!!!! See?
So ladies have to love themselves as every kind of woman so they can teach the males as kids and as adults HOW to love the males so the males can love the females as themselves!!! Perfect sense? You betcha!
For over the first 20 years of my life, I cd not because I wd not say Please nor speak properly because only girls said Please and spoke properly!
Any way, that's just to encourage you ladies that we men do --at least this man does and as do God and shakespeare ---know that you ladies are the superior gender! and deserve more pay for the same job done by males just because you are superior!. Yes, I know I am superior too! But ladies are more superior or more equal than we men are!. I can supply that proof any time! Hint: Who bears babies that men don't bear and who takes care of both those babies and those me and STILL outlive those very men? Hmmmm if God had put women over men in titular authority, it wd have been unblalnced! So he put the stronger under the weaker to give us men a chance to shine but never to be able to outshine his masterpiece, which best he saved for last! Sigh Out of the weak came forth the strong! So for men's sake, by whom you ladies are authored, please exercise your God-given innate wisdom for us men: you ladies, after all, are by whom we men are men!
Last edited by ape on Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jerry
Joined: 13 Nov 2009
Posts: 56
Location: N.C., USA
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| Post: #23 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Scott;
| Quote: |
| No, rape isn't about sex; it's about power and violence. |
Yes, it is power and violence, but when has the Steelers middle linebacker been raped? Or even the skinny fellow in the old Charles Atlas ads. They just get beaten on.
| Quote: |
| They have pathological rage, low self-image, traumatizing history of abuse, or so forth. Rapists want to rape, not have consensual sex. |
There are those that are simply crazy; I can't rationalize the irrational, such characters are akin to J. Dohmer and child rapists. I suspect many rapists though, can not accept having been rejected numerous times. I reckon you are right about abuse, but I have no way to reason about that. Low self esteem can certainly be brought about by rejection. In that we probably all have experience; some simply can't take it and strike the target they feel they can be most likely to prevail because at one or more occasion they could not have consensual sex. My "attractive features" comment was, admittedly, just silly.
I had a short experience as guard at the local county jell when, on two occasions, rapists were confined. Both made it clear they had been spurned many times. I may be basing my notions on those witnesses too heavily. However, could not it also be true that a woman might want to dominate, would your arguments apply and a man is raped?
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ape
Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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| Post: #24 Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Jerry wrote: |
Respecting job and compensation men and women should be equal; the assignment must be in qualification and aptnes to perform the work. House work should be shared.
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Hi Jerry!
Good point! . I think another man shd get more pay than me if he is better at the same job we both do. So to me, that also applies to a woman: she shd also get more pay if she does a superior job at the same job I do, OR I shd also get more pay if I do a better job at the same job she does.
| Jerry wrote: |
One matter I can not see equality in is children. When my wife was handed her baby after birth there was an obvious contact of the two that can not be challenged by a man. It is simply not in us. I don't know why, but I do know it is not a taught thing - it is completely natural. I never attended to my children as carefully as thier mother did. |
Excellent! To me, women are superior overall! By the way, I let my wife rule me to teach her to let me rule her! Smile. She's been kinda slow learning that lesson!. Any hints?
By the way, I think your experience as a guard with those rapists is significant:
it ties in with what I think: that rape is caused by Hate of self as weak and Hate of self when not getting any and by Hate of self as timid and by Hate of self as spurned or as rejected or as any word.
So the person who hates self has to get some to feel loved since no sex means no Love. And he will do it violently to be strong to love and respect himself and to get love and Respect from others who despise weak men! But of course, he is then again hated as a rapist bully or a bullying rapist! It's like teens who, when despised for being virgins at 16, go out and get sex of any kind, and then are still again depsised as fornicators!
The first rape is mental and psychological and spiritual when any person is taught to hate himself and hates himself.) So when a man rapes, for the public or the justice systen to hate him or her as a rapist makes him or her a worse rapist since we compound the very Hatred for self that made him or her rape in the first place. Which wd also explain why rapists are not rehabbed and rehab does not work. 99% of rapists hate themselves as rapists as they hated themselves as before the rape, and so must rape again since Hate of self is the first rape.
Thanks for your posts!. You are as good a phil as any of the rest of us, and even better! |
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Jerry
Joined: 13 Nov 2009
Posts: 56
Location: N.C., USA
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| Post: #25 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:04 am Post subject: What is this feminism |
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Folks;
The more I look over what Scott has noted I find, when eliminating my unnecessary words, I can’t disagree with him. I am losing the argument as to cause of rape. I want to stop digging, give up, uncle! If I may beg you folks on one other matter regarding feminism, I pose and ask about the following;
With the questions of abortion feminists argue that it is woman’s choice. That seems proper on the surface, but, what if the future father wants the baby? And if the father prefers abortion and the mother decides to birth, which is responsible for financial support? The heart, in both instances, agrees with the woman, the head can’t wrap the logic up. Generally feminists want the man to fund her choice but have no say in the matter. Usually authority and responsibility go hand in hand.
On the third hand;
Laws have been enacted in some states, many I think, permitting a charge of two murders if a pregnant woman is murdered. Again, the heart sympathizes with the double charge that would result in more serious consideration for life without parole or capital punishment as a double murder. If the fetus can be argued as non-human and may be aborted it is not a human life. If she is murdered, the fetus is human.
Somehow, I can’t put words to it; the logic of the two instances falls apart even though the heart might sympathize with the feminist idea. Can the fetus be both someone and not someone?
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Nick_A
Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Posts: 1461
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| Post: #26 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:45 am Post subject: |
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Hi Jerry
| Quote: |
| Somehow, I can’t put words to it; the logic of the two instances falls apart even though the heart might sympathize with the feminist idea. Can the fetus be both someone and not someone? |
Anything is possible with politics. A woman decides if a thing is a living human being or not. It is why abortion is legal.
When the baby doesn't exist the thing being carried is called a "zef" (Zygote Embryo Fetus). As soon as she wants it, it is called a "baby." So politically, killing a baby is called murder while the destruction of a zef is called a simple bodily elimination.
If you see a pregnant woman dying from attack, the first question you must ask is if she wants what she is carrying. If she says yes, then it is a double murder. If she says no then it is just regular old fashioned murder.
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Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace |
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Alun
Joined: 11 Jul 2009
Posts: 1008
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| Post: #27 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Jerry wrote: |
| Sexual abuse is weighted against women because men are stronger than women. |
Sure, but as I said, I don't think that's the only factor. E.g. the idea man should keep his woman in line. Or the idea that women have a duty to do housework and have sex at the husband's demand.
| Nick_A wrote: |
| A woman decides if a thing is a living human being or not. It is why abortion is legal. |
Stop misrepresenting your opponents, it just weakens you and degrades the debate.
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"I have nothing new to teach the world" -Mohandas "Mahatma" Gandhi |
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Scott
Site Admin
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| Post: #28 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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Let's remember that there are already threads to discuss the controversial issue of abortion:
Let's remember that the topic of this thread is feminism. So when talking about abortion in this thread, let's remember only to talk about it in the context of feminism, and remember that feminism entails many other issues also.
I want to point out a few things about the relationship between abortion and feminism. Abortion wasn't a major issue at the start of the feminist movement in the United States and United Kingdom, especially since they were still working on getting the right to vote then.
As I understand it, whether they would have been pro-choice or not, feminists generally have agreed that abortion has been a problem caused to women by society and men. In this sense, choosing between making it legal for women to get abortion or forcing them to give birth is an instance of choosing between the so-called lesser of two evils (i.e. the less undesirable of two undesirable outcomes). The underlying problem, which concerns feminists more than the abortion issue itself, is what causes this choice between the so-called lesser of two evils. Examples can include economic inequality and poverty that make a women need abortion for economic reasons, the abandonment by fathers, the lack of complete education for women and lack of sexual freedom. Nowadays, women have come a long way to have been lessen or eliminate these social and sexist causes of abortion, which are problems regardless of whether or not abortion is legal. But most still exist at least to some degree, particularly the abandonment of fathers and the poverty of single mothers. And other abortion-causing problems less related to sexism still exist such as poverty in general, lack of education and lack of adoption reform.
Seeing that at root feminism simply means anti-sexism, I do not think it leads to a view of whether or not to legalize or criminalize abortion. There are many feminists who want abortion to be legal. There are many feminists who want abortion to be illegal. The reasons aren't usually about sexism but the same as anyone: Is abortion ever murder, and if so when? At what point does a fetus begin to feel pain? Does having sentience make a thing a 'legal person' or does having human DNA? What qualities does a thing have to possess for us to want it to have a legal right to life? Do we want it to be illegal for the owner of property to evict a helpless person from a home which the evicted person will die without? These questions are issues independent of feminism, and one's views about abortion is determined by their answer to those questions not by how much of a feminist one is.
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ape
Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 3324
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| Post: #29 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: What is this feminism |
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| Jerry wrote: |
Folks;
....Somehow, I can’t put words to it; the logic of the two instances falls apart even though the heart might sympathize with the feminist idea. Can the fetus be both someone and not someone? |
Jerry! I feel your consternation! So here is some encouragement as to how and why I am both someone and noone to myself and to others:
When I am a coward and we, you and I, love me, we will call me prudent and my cowardice prudence. But when we hate me, we will simply reverse the names: we will call me and my prudence a coward and cowardice.
See?
Try it with freedom-fighters and terrorists, wiseman and fool, assertiveness and arriogance, content and complacent, and etc and etc. We dehumanise to despise and humanise to love.
Example:
Prolifers call me a human life in the womb and love me to keep me alive, but will call me a murderer as an adult with life in the womb of life and hate me as such to kill me.
Pro-choicers just reverse the process: they will hate and kill me as a baby zygote, and love and keep me alive as an adult murderer.
So we call it human-life to love it and when we want to keep it, and we call it a living zygote to hate it when we want to eliminate it.
NB: in both cases, whatever it is, it has life.
It's how words work and how our brains work: what whatever or whoever is to me is its major meaning as compared to the minority of what it is or who I am.
So the solution has to be and is for both the namer and the namee to love all words and their opposites so that whatever you call me or call it, I can agree with your naming of whoever or whatever as whatever word or name you want to call it.
So the real problem with calling the fetus human or un- or non-human is if we already love the one and hate the other, or vice versa.
But if we love it as human and as non-human, look what happens:
Hey, it occurs to us:
God designed the female body to miscarriage whoever or whatever is miscarried with no murder-charge nor penalty.
Hmmmm Can we call miscarriage human spontaneous abortion and deliberate divine abortion? Of course.
Plus, God only levied a fine if a pregant lady accidentally loses the life of her baby in a fight. See Exodus 21-22.
So what is wrong with deliberate abortion by humans is only the Hate the mom or dad have for each other and for the life in her no matter what either mom or dad call it! See? That Hate is what makes them do what they do.
And so what makes me guilty of that same attitude of Hate which makes abortion murder is when I hate abortionists or prolifers or pro-choicers! See?
So Hatred for death or for abortionists--chief of whom is God a la miscarriages ---taints even the decision to not have an abortion.
Thus, by zeroing in with and on the Attitude of Love, we eliminate the Hatred for not having sex that makes people have sex to get Love, -- rather than have Love whether we have sex or not,--- that leads to most sex and so to most pregnancies and so to most abortions...no matter what we or they call it.
Hope that helps. |
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Nick_A
Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Posts: 1461
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| Post: #30 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott wrote: |
Let's remember that there are already threads to discuss the controversial issue of abortion:
Let's remember that the topic of this thread is feminism. So when talking about abortion in this thread, let's remember only to talk about it in the context of feminism, and remember that feminism entails many other issues also.
I want to point out a few things about the relationship between abortion and feminism. Abortion wasn't a major issue at the start of the feminist movement in the United States and United Kingdom, especially since they were still working on getting the right to vote then.
As I understand it, whether they would have been pro-choice or not, feminists generally have agreed that abortion has been a problem caused to women by society and men. In this sense, choosing between making it legal for women to get abortion or forcing them to give birth is an instance of choosing between the so-called lesser of two evils (i.e. the less undesirable of two undesirable outcomes). The underlying problem, which concerns feminists more than the abortion issue itself, is what causes this choice between the so-called lesser of two evils. Examples can include economic inequality and poverty that make a women need abortion for economic reasons, the abandonment by fathers, the lack of complete education for women and lack of sexual freedom. Nowadays, women have come a long way to have been lessen or eliminate these social and sexist causes of abortion, which are problems regardless of whether or not abortion is legal. But most still exist at least to some degree, particularly the abandonment of fathers and the poverty of single mothers. And other abortion-causing problems less related to sexism still exist such as poverty in general, lack of education and lack of adoption reform.
Seeing that at root feminism simply means anti-sexism, I do not think it leads to a view of whether or not to legalize or criminalize abortion. There are many feminists who want abortion to be legal. There are many feminists who want abortion to be illegal. The reasons aren't usually about sexism but the same as anyone: Is abortion ever murder, and if so when? At what point does a fetus begin to feel pain? Does having sentience make a thing a 'legal person' or does having human DNA? What qualities does a thing have to possess for us to want it to have a legal right to life? Do we want it to be illegal for the owner of property to evict a helpless person from a home which the evicted person will die without? These questions are issues independent of feminism, and one's views about abortion is determined by their answer to those questions not by how much of a feminist one is. |
The bottom line Scott is that through feminism, a woman has been given the right to decide if a thing is considered a baby or a zef. If it is a baby then it can be murdered, if it is a zef, it is just eliminated as with any other harmful parasite through a medical procedure. The woman decides which it is according to her moods.
_________________
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace |
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