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| Could exposing a very young child to religion be considered a form of child abuse? maybe spiritual or mental abuse? |
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| Total Votes : 19 |
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Belinda
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Post: #46  Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:00 am Post subject: |
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Demons and stuff are too scary for children to handle. It's not a fit debate for children to decide for or against demons. You should be protecting them from scary things until they are old and wise enough to decide whther or not you are a bampot.
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Homicidal Pacifist
Joined: 19 Jul 2009
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Location: Your mom's house. Ha.
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| Post: #47 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:45 am Post subject: . |
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Belinda -
I actually disagree with you on this point.
I think it is okay to expose (in the form of education) a child to the horrors of the world so as to prepare them. We should probably spare them some the hideous details, but don't let them feel as though the world is a safe place when it is not.
Take rape for example. A child should know that some people sometimes force things on other people and it is not appropriate because it is hurts the other person in ways that will scar deeply for life. We don't need to play a charades game showing the humping and the screaming, but we should probably instill some degree of knowledge and understanding.
Likewise with demons, we can tell the child the components of a religoun without saying that it is a for sure fact when all we have is faith and reasonable or unreasonable assumption. We can that it some people consider demons to be fictional while others believe them to be metophorical and others believe them to be literal and tell the child not to rush into believing anything until they have researched from multiple sources and come to their own decisions in their own time.
The best way, in my mind, to help a child realize morality or good will toward men is not to hide vital information out of fear of scaring them; it is to help them understand through thorough education, patience, and respect.
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Meleagar
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1475
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| Post: #48 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| Belinda wrote: |
| Demons and stuff are too scary for children to handle. It's not a fit debate for children to decide for or against demons. You should be protecting them from scary things until they are old and wise enough to decide whther or not you are a bampot. |
There's nothing any more scary about demons than three is about fire, or bad people, or disease. The issue isn't really about demons, it's that some people have an a priori, ideological bias about some things. Note that nobody asked me why I taught them about demons, or how, or why I believed that demons exist; nor has anyone asked what the practical result of such a belief has been in my experience.
If coyotes or bears, or human predators roamed the countryside nearby, what would be better described as child abuse: teaching my children that coyotes and bears and human predators roamed the countryside, and the precautions they needed to take, rules of engagement, etc; or, simply letting them grow up without saying anything about it so they can make up their own mind?
If you don't teach your children about the real dangers that exist in the world, you're doing them a disservice, whether it frightens them to learn about such things or not. I'm sure you know this, and would of course teach your children how to recognize such dangers and the proper protocols for safety and reaction.
So your admonition against "scaring" them isn't the real issue; the real issue is that you don't believe demons are real. Here's the problem: I've directly experienced real demons, and I know from empirical, repeated personal experience and verification from those I trust around me who experienced them at the same time that they do exist and do operate in the world. I've directly experienced the kind of damage they can do unless one understands what is going on and takes proper precautions against them.
Let's hypothesize for a moment that the spiritual realms exist, and that there are malevolent entities one can call demons that - like viruses or cancer - seem to only exist to cause damage or harm. Let's further stipulate that these demons can orchestrate events and manipulate thoughts, reactions, and emotions to a degree.
We know how problematic a good con man or an evil person can be if they decide to generate drama or strife in one's existence; now imagine that same problem only the only people to blame for certain events are ourselves or the people around us that we love. In other words, the only model we have to rationalize or understand these dire or problematic events is to view ourselves or those we love negatively.
Imagine that, like an evil, manipulative human, a demon can convince you to do, think, or believe things that you wouldn't normally; how much easier would that be if you thought it was your own logic, your own thoughts, and not those of some physical interloper? Imagine what a manipulative, evil person could do, the damage they could cause, if they were were not normally visible and you thought their words were your own thoughts, their intention your own feelings, or those of others you love?
Now imagine the kind of harm such an entity can cause, especially if they can manipulate sequences of events in your life to justify the bad thoughts and feelings they are putting in your mind - which is essentially not qualitatively different from what a malevolent person does; a demon would just be immune from accusation or even recognition as the problem, because we don't believe they exist.
Now, if such entities are real, then in the same way that people refused to use proper sanitation because they did not believe microscopic entities actually existed which could be transferred from person to person by touch or air, because people refuse to believe that what we call "spiritual demons" exist (whatever they may actually be), they refuse to take the proper precautions or recognize the symptoms or effects of their presence, allowing them to rampantly cause whatever destruction they can.
So you see, from my perspective, it is those who refuse that such entities exist, and refuse to teach their children the proper preventative and recognition protocols, that are the ones who are putting their children at risk.
| Homicidal Pacifist wrote: |
I think it is okay to expose (in the form of education) a child to the horrors of the world so as to prepare them. We should probably spare them some the hideous details, but don't let them feel as though the world is a safe place when it is not.
Likewise with demons, ......some people consider demons to be fictional while others believe them to be metophorical and others believe them to be literal and tell the child not to rush into believing anything until they have researched from multiple sources and come to their own decisions in their own time. |
Is that what you would teach your child about fire, or human predators, bears, scorpions, drowning, or falling from high places? Note the bias you sneak into your supposedly rational advice; your advice is sound if there is no real, immediate danger or threat from demons, or if it is simply a "concept" that one can choose to believe or not and have no real consequences.
If you experienced them and knew that demons are real things, like human predators, fire, and scorpions, then I suggest you wouldn't hesitate to teach your children that they exist and how to deal with them; it is from the comfort of your disbelief that you feel safe in advising that children be allowed to "decide for themselves" if such dangers exist.
If I don't believe in germ theory or that sanitation works, should I teach my children to "make up their own minds" about it? Should I not command them to wash their hands, to disinfect a wound? Should I not take them to the doctor when they have symptoms?
This is the problem with what you see as a reasonable means of raising children when it comes to instilling beliefs; your ideological bias is showing - you want the children to be taught about what you believe to be real as if those things are real, but you want parents to allow them to make up their own minds about things you don't believe to be real.
You're offering a clever, candy-coated, PC version of what Belinda and Athena don't try to cover up: their ideological bias and a priori certainty that demons don't actually exist, because if they do, then a parent certainly doesn't have the luxury of allowing their children to "come to their own beliefs" about it any more than a parent can allow a child to "come to their own beliefs" about human predators, sanitation, fire, etc.
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Homicidal Pacifist
Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 546
Location: Your mom's house. Ha.
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| Post: #49 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:58 am Post subject: . |
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Good job Meleagar.
First I would ask what specific experiences you have had with demons.
Second I would say that I never said that I don't believe that Satan and demons do not exist.
I first saw the devil in hell when I had my first epileptic seizure at the tender age of 9. He was slapping me hard in the face over and over and I awoke to see my friend trying to slap me out of the seizure.
The second time was during the peak of a severe acid trip 9 years ago. I have no proof or solid reason to believe that what I saw in these instances was real or illusion. My parents instilled a belief in God and Satan from the day I came out the womb and it's very possible that my vivid imagination and powerful ability to dream had something to do with this.
I think the evil lurks within. We all have a bit of God and a bit of the devil inside us, but WE choose which side to lean towards or to remain more nuetral. I do not believe that demons control us because that is the destruction of free-will (though the same can be done with mind-controlling drugs so I will continue thinking about this issue).
So maybe you hallucinated and forcing your kids to call your fantasy reality. Just because other people agreed that they witnessed demons does not mean that you have conclusive proof or even sufficient reason to believe because people say crazy things all the time. But do tell, I am very interested.
Lastly, what precautions do you recommend for dealing with demons? If it's prayer I would say that if prayer works, that is the only thing that prayer can cure. I do pray, daily, but I don't ask for stuff because it doesn't seem to work that way. Instead, I thank God for this day, this life, these days, and these lives (all of them; even my "enemies").
I would tell my kids to keep an eye out for all the dangerous things that I KNOW exist and tell them to keep their minds open to new possibilities, but not to fear supernatural forces which may or may not exist. I would not tell them to look out for ghosts, but I would tell them that some people believe that ghosts are real and that maybe they are right. That's education about the unknown.
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athena
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Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Posts: 857
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| Post: #50 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| Meleagar wrote: |
| Belinda wrote: |
| Demons and stuff are too scary for children to handle. It's not a fit debate for children to decide for or against demons. You should be protecting them from scary things until they are old and wise enough to decide whther or not you are a bampot. |
There's nothing any more scary about demons than three is about fire, or bad people, or disease. The issue isn't really about demons, it's that some people have an a priori, ideological bias about some things. Note that nobody asked me why I taught them about demons, or how, or why I believed that demons exist; nor has anyone asked what the practical result of such a belief has been in my experience.
If coyotes or bears, or human predators roamed the countryside nearby, what would be better described as child abuse: teaching my children that coyotes and bears and human predators roamed the countryside, and the precautions they needed to take, rules of engagement, etc; or, simply letting them grow up without saying anything about it so they can make up their own mind?
If you don't teach your children about the real dangers that exist in the world, you're doing them a disservice, whether it frightens them to learn about such things or not. I'm sure you know this, and would of course teach your children how to recognize such dangers and the proper protocols for safety and reaction.
So your admonition against "scaring" them isn't the real issue; the real issue is that you don't believe demons are real. Here's the problem: I've directly experienced real demons, and I know from empirical, repeated personal experience and verification from those I trust around me who experienced them at the same time that they do exist and do operate in the world. I've directly experienced the kind of damage they can do unless one understands what is going on and takes proper precautions against them.
Let's hypothesize for a moment that the spiritual realms exist, and that there are malevolent entities one can call demons that - like viruses or cancer - seem to only exist to cause damage or harm. Let's further stipulate that these demons can orchestrate events and manipulate thoughts, reactions, and emotions to a degree.
We know how problematic a good con man or an evil person can be if they decide to generate drama or strife in one's existence; now imagine that same problem only the only people to blame for certain events are ourselves or the people around us that we love. In other words, the only model we have to rationalize or understand these dire or problematic events is to view ourselves or those we love negatively.
Imagine that, like an evil, manipulative human, a demon can convince you to do, think, or believe things that you wouldn't normally; how much easier would that be if you thought it was your own logic, your own thoughts, and not those of some physical interloper? Imagine what a manipulative, evil person could do, the damage they could cause, if they were were not normally visible and you thought their words were your own thoughts, their intention your own feelings, or those of others you love?
Now imagine the kind of harm such an entity can cause, especially if they can manipulate sequences of events in your life to justify the bad thoughts and feelings they are putting in your mind - which is essentially not qualitatively different from what a malevolent person does; a demon would just be immune from accusation or even recognition as the problem, because we don't believe they exist.
Now, if such entities are real, then in the same way that people refused to use proper sanitation because they did not believe microscopic entities actually existed which could be transferred from person to person by touch or air, because people refuse to believe that what we call "spiritual demons" exist (whatever they may actually be), they refuse to take the proper precautions or recognize the symptoms or effects of their presence, allowing them to rampantly cause whatever destruction they can.
So you see, from my perspective, it is those who refuse that such entities exist, and refuse to teach their children the proper preventative and recognition protocols, that are the ones who are putting their children at risk.
| Homicidal Pacifist wrote: |
I think it is okay to expose (in the form of education) a child to the horrors of the world so as to prepare them. We should probably spare them some the hideous details, but don't let them feel as though the world is a safe place when it is not.
Likewise with demons, ......some people consider demons to be fictional while others believe them to be metophorical and others believe them to be literal and tell the child not to rush into believing anything until they have researched from multiple sources and come to their own decisions in their own time. |
Is that what you would teach your child about fire, or human predators, bears, scorpions, drowning, or falling from high places? Note the bias you sneak into your supposedly rational advice; your advice is sound if there is no real, immediate danger or threat from demons, or if it is simply a "concept" that one can choose to believe or not and have no real consequences.
If you experienced them and knew that demons are real things, like human predators, fire, and scorpions, then I suggest you wouldn't hesitate to teach your children that they exist and how to deal with them; it is from the comfort of your disbelief that you feel safe in advising that children be allowed to "decide for themselves" if such dangers exist.
If I don't believe in germ theory or that sanitation works, should I teach my children to "make up their own minds" about it? Should I not command them to wash their hands, to disinfect a wound? Should I not take them to the doctor when they have symptoms?
This is the problem with what you see as a reasonable means of raising children when it comes to instilling beliefs; your ideological bias is showing - you want the children to be taught about what you believe to be real as if those things are real, but you want parents to allow them to make up their own minds about things you don't believe to be real.
You're offering a clever, candy-coated, PC version of what Belinda and Athena don't try to cover up: their ideological bias and a priori certainty that demons don't actually exist, because if they do, then a parent certainly doesn't have the luxury of allowing their children to "come to their own beliefs" about it any more than a parent can allow a child to "come to their own beliefs" about human predators, sanitation, fire, etc. |
Demons are not like like lions, tigers and bears. Demons are not real, and telling your children that they are real can result in far worse than scaring them. It can result in serious mental disorder, and unacceptable behaviors in their adult lives.
If you have experienced demons, you are an example of the problem with teaching your children that demons are real. When I had my experience with demonic forces, I made the decision they did not exist, and I consider this one of the most important decisions in my life. To believe in the supernatural is not a good thing, and if you keep having experiences with demons, perhaps you should see a professional. |
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Meleagar
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1475
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| Post: #51 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| athena wrote: |
Demons are not like like lions, tigers and bears. Demons are not real, and telling your children that they are real can result in far worse than scaring them. It can result in serious mental disorder, and unacceptable behaviors in their adult lives. |
You're just restating your ideological premise, not making a logical argument from the facts or premises and inferences tendered. You can claim they're not real, I can claim they are.
| Quote: |
| If you have experienced demons, you are an example of the problem with teaching your children that demons are real. When I had my experience with demonic forces, I made the decision they did not exist, and I consider this one of the most important decisions in my life. To believe in the supernatural is not a good thing, and if you keep having experiences with demons, perhaps you should see a professional. |
The irony of this is that both of our views are shaped by personal experience, but while I don't condemn you for the path you took, you condemn me for the path I took. You chose to believe those things you were experiencing were not real; I chose to believe they were real.
However, I don't believe you took a "wrong" path, you just took the one you felt was best for you; I don't judge what you might teach your children negatively; only as what you must teach them. Unfortunately, you don't extend to others the same courtesy; in order to feel that you are right you condemn others as wrong, without even offering a logical argument or an argument based on evidence.
Often, in order to feel self-worth, we must fault others for choosing paths that we ourselves avoid in order to feel some sort of justification for our path.
It is also interesting that my decision has also led to what I consider to be unprecedented mental health, happiness and enjoyment of life. It's a pity that you think others must believe like you in order to have a successful mental life.
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http://spiritualintelligentdesign.blogspot.com/
Last edited by Meleagar on Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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athena
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Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Posts: 857
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| Post: #52 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| Meleagar wrote: |
Demons are not like like lions, tigers and bears. Demons are not real, and telling your children that they are real can result in far worse than scaring them. It can result in serious mental disorder, and unacceptable behaviors in their adult lives.
You're just restating your ideological premise, not making a logical argument from the facts or premises and inferences tendered.
| Quote: |
| If you have experienced demons, you are an example of the problem with teaching your children that demons are real. When I had my experience with demonic forces, I made the decision they did not exist, and I consider this one of the most important decisions in my life. To believe in the supernatural is not a good thing, and if you keep having experiences with demons, perhaps you should see a professional. |
The irony of this is that both of our views are shaped by personal experience, but while I don't condemn you for the path you took, you condemn me for the path I took. I don't belive you took a "wrong" path, you just took the one you felt was best for you; I don't judge what you might teach your children negatively; only as what you must teach them. Unfortunately, you don't extend others the same courtesy; in order to feel that you are right you condemn others as wrong, without even offering a logical argument or an argument based on evidence.
Often, in order to feel self-worth, we must fault others for choosing paths that we ourselves avoid in order to feel some sort of justification for our path. |
My answer to the question of this thread is, I believe teaching children superstitious notions is harmful. This is not about good or bad manners. It is about perceptions of reality. I perceive it as harmful to teach children dangerous superstitious notions, because then they can imagine demonic experiences, and bad things can result from this.
Christianity is so paradoxical as Christians assume they stand against believing things like a tree is has a harmful demon, or a well has good spirits, and yet their belief system says such things are true. They want to have it both ways, confirming the superstitious notions, and yet wanting to believe only Christians know which superstitious notions are real and what ones are false. Either superstitious notions correctly describe reality or they do not. If they are correct, than there is a god who will bless us if we sacrifice animals to him, and he is even more impressed if we prove we love him, but sacrificing our sons to him. True or not?
Our egos do not belong in a debate about what is true and logical. Either we believe superstitious notions or we do not, and these notions are either good for our children or they are not. None of the superstitious notions are better because they are Christian, or Muslim, and they are not worse if they are voodoo or native American spiritualism. How willing are you to accept the superstitious notions of other people? Do you think it is a shame if you don't believe they all speak truth? |
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Meleagar
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1475
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| Post: #53 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:15 am Post subject: Re: . |
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| Homicidal Pacifist wrote: |
| Good job Meleagar. |
Well, we aim to please.
| Quote: |
| First I would ask what specific experiences you have had with demons. |
What difference does it make? This thread isn't about demons, it's about whether or not religious beliefs such as demons are inappropriate to teach children; I contend that the only argument that it is inappropriate is one that is simply an a priori position that demons are not real, which is not sufficient to argue meaningfully that such teaching is "abuse" in any sense.
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| Second I would say that I never said that I don't believe that Satan and demons do not exist. |
The implication from how you organized what we should teach children, and how, is apparent; you don't consider them a real and present threat.
| Quote: |
| I think the evil lurks within. We all have a bit of God and a bit of the devil inside us, but WE choose which side to lean towards or to remain more nuetral. I do not believe that demons control us because that is the destruction of free-will (though the same can be done with mind-controlling drugs so I will continue thinking about this issue). |
You are of course free to believe as you wish and live your life as you wish and teach your children as you wish; let's remember that it is not I that advocate that others be constricted in what they teach their children; it is others that advocate that I be constricted in what I teach my children.
| Quote: |
| So maybe you hallucinated and forcing your kids to call your fantasy reality. |
That could be true of anything one believes. The best one can do in determining if one is hallucinating or not is to ask those they trust around them if they are witnessing and experiencing the same thing, then look for other means of verifying what one is experiencing. Other than that, I'm not sure how one goes about determining if they are experiencing a delusion or not.
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| Just because other people agreed that they witnessed demons does not mean that you have conclusive proof or even sufficient reason to believe because people say crazy things all the time. But do tell, I am very interested. |
My sufficient reason to believe lies in whether or not the belief provides practical benefit. My belief in demons provides great practical benefit for me and my family; whether or not it is actually true is irrelevant to me.
Whether or not you understand or agree with how it particularly benefits me and my family is irrelevent to the point; in my opinion it does, and therefore it justifies my belief by my standards of justification. Also, IMO, it causes no negative impact whatsoever. In order for others to justify criminalizing what I teach my children it is incumbent upon them to prove that my standards are insufficient by some objective measurment, and that my children are being harmed by some objective system of evaluation. Such is not proven simply by asserting that "demons are not real and so your children are harmed if you teach them they are."
| Quote: |
| Lastly, what precautions do you recommend for dealing with demons? |
I have no idea what works for demons I'm not familiar with; what works with the two I've experienced is simply that those it attempts to trick recognize it for what it is (a con man cannot con those who know he's a con man and tricks don't work if you know the trick); and for those who are problematically infected to find a pharmaceutical, like Paxil or Prozac, that inhibits or weakens the demon's influence. Other innoculating or curative procedures or materials might help, but the only things I've personally seen work is recognition and pharmaceuticals.
| Quote: |
| I would tell my kids to keep an eye out for all the dangerous things that I KNOW exist and tell them to keep their minds open to new possibilities, but not to fear supernatural forces which may or may not exist. I would not tell them to look out for ghosts, but I would tell them that some people believe that ghosts are real and that maybe they are right. That's education about the unknown. |
I agree that you can teach your children whatever you wish; however, it is you and others that are attempting to lay down guidelines for everyone on what they should and should not teach their children based on what you believe has been proven and what you believe has not been proven, or what you consider to be real or not real - or, at least, not generally accepted to be real or proven.
Athena, all you're doing in your latest post is reasserting that demons are not real by calling them "superstitions". Who gets to define what is real, and what is superstition? It's not an argument you present, but simply an a priori assertion.
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athena
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Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Posts: 857
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| Post: #54 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:57 am Post subject: Re: . |
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| Meleagar wrote: |
| Homicidal Pacifist wrote: |
| Good job Meleagar. |
Well, we aim to please.
| Quote: |
| First I would ask what specific experiences you have had with demons. |
What difference does it make? This thread isn't about demons, it's about whether or not religious beliefs such as demons are inappropriate to teach children; I contend that the only argument that it is inappropriate is one that is simply an a priori position that demons are not real, which is not sufficient to argue meaningfully that such teaching is "abuse" in any sense.
| Quote: |
| Second I would say that I never said that I don't believe that Satan and demons do not exist. |
The implication from how you organized what we should teach children, and how, is apparent; you don't consider them a real and present threat.
| Quote: |
| I think the evil lurks within. We all have a bit of God and a bit of the devil inside us, but WE choose which side to lean towards or to remain more nuetral. I do not believe that demons control us because that is the destruction of free-will (though the same can be done with mind-controlling drugs so I will continue thinking about this issue). |
You are of course free to believe as you wish and live your life as you wish and teach your children as you wish; let's remember that it is not I that advocate that others be constricted in what they teach their children; it is others that advocate that I be constricted in what I teach my children.
| Quote: |
| So maybe you hallucinated and forcing your kids to call your fantasy reality. |
That could be true of anything one believes. The best one can do in determining if one is hallucinating or not is to ask those they trust around them if they are witnessing and experiencing the same thing, then look for other means of verifying what one is experiencing. Other than that, I'm not sure how one goes about determining if they are experiencing a delusion or not.
| Quote: |
| Just because other people agreed that they witnessed demons does not mean that you have conclusive proof or even sufficient reason to believe because people say crazy things all the time. But do tell, I am very interested. |
My sufficient reason to believe lies in whether or not the belief provides practical benefit. My belief in demons provides great practical benefit for me and my family; whether or not it is actually true is irrelevant to me.
Whether or not you understand or agree with how it particularly benefits me and my family is irrelevent to the point; in my opinion it does, and therefore it justifies my belief by my standards of justification. Also, IMO, it causes no negative impact whatsoever. In order for others to justify criminalizing what I teach my children it is incumbent upon them to prove that my standards are insufficient by some objective measurment, and that my children are being harmed by some objective system of evaluation. Such is not proven simply by asserting that "demons are not real and so your children are harmed if you teach them they are."
| Quote: |
| Lastly, what precautions do you recommend for dealing with demons? |
I have no idea what works for demons I'm not familiar with; what works with the two I've experienced is simply that those it attempts to trick recognize it for what it is (a con man cannot con those who know he's a con man and tricks don't work if you know the trick); and for those who are problematically infected to find a pharmaceutical, like Paxil or Prozac, that inhibits or weakens the demon's influence. Other innoculating or curative procedures or materials might help, but the only things I've personally seen work is recognition and pharmaceuticals.
| Quote: |
| I would tell my kids to keep an eye out for all the dangerous things that I KNOW exist and tell them to keep their minds open to new possibilities, but not to fear supernatural forces which may or may not exist. I would not tell them to look out for ghosts, but I would tell them that some people believe that ghosts are real and that maybe they are right. That's education about the unknown. |
I agree that you can teach your children whatever you wish; however, it is you and others that are attempting to lay down guidelines for everyone on what they should and should not teach their children based on what you believe has been proven and what you believe has not been proven, or what you consider to be real or not real - or, at least, not generally accepted to be real or proven.
Athena, all you're doing in your latest post is reasserting that demons are not real by calling them "superstitions". Who gets to define what is real, and what is superstition? It's not an argument you present, but simply an a priori assertion. |
Science does a pretty good job of determining if it is germs making people sick or demons. Nature does not violate the laws of nature, and for sure, supernatural things do. When something violates the laws of nature, we can reason this is not science, but superstition.
A superstition is any belief that is inconsistent with known facts or rational thought, esp. such a belief in omens, the supernatural, etc.. As long as people believe in the supernatural, they have no argument with all the superstitious people of the world, other than a competition for who will be the recognized authority about supernatural matters. One superstition is not better than another, so be careful of trees that may be possessed by evil demons, and avoid pigs and goats that could be carrying demons. Or if you are feeling possessed by a demon, then certainly do find a pig or goat to cast the demon into.
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http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Demon_possession/
As back as we know by ancient inscriptions, Sumerians, Akkadians and Chaldeans, who shared some religious beliefs, described several procedures to protect people against demonic possession. There are also written cuneiform tablets about exorcisms to expel demons from humans once they had invaded their bodies. The priests who practised exorcisms in these nations were called Ashipy and Mashmashu. Nevertheless there are no descriptions of specific punishments against possessed persons as it happened later many times in Christian societies |
When did this pagan superstition become God's truth? What was the method for determining truth? |
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Meleagar
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| Post: #55 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: . |
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| athena wrote: |
Science does a pretty good job of determining if it is germs making people sick or demons. |
I've already pointed out the problem in this "argument" - hasty generalization, biased sample, and the problem that even if science could prove that demons didn't cause any illness, that doesn't mean demons don't exist; it would just mean they don't cause illness. You seem to be incapable of incorporating the rebuttals already presented into your argument; you're just reiterating things you've already said which have been addressed and rebutted.
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| Nature does not violate the laws of nature, and for, sure supernatural things do. When something violates the laws of nature, we can reason this is not science, but superstition. |
I didn't claim that demons were supernatural, nor do I know of any way to prove they are or are not, so this is yet just another way you have of simply asserting that demons are not real; you can claim that they are not real, that they are superstitions, or that they are "supernatural", but in the end it's just the same assertion dressed up with a different word.
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| A superstition is any belief that is inconsistent with known facts or rational thought, esp. such a belief in omens, the supernatural, etc.. |
Until you can provide evidence or argument that the existence of demons is inconsistent with known facts or rational thought, all you are doing is reaffirming ideological bias against the possibility of their existence.
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Scott
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| Post: #56 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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Whether or not teaching kids about demons is an issue that depends on two sub-issues: The nature of the belief in demons and the nature of child abuse. I could understand your view of the latter if you all could at least provide a yes or no answer to the question I asked in post #44:
| Scott wrote: |
| Could it be child abuse to convince your kids that alien abductions, telekinesis, and psychics are real despite the lack of convincing scientific evidence? |
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Meleagar
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
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| Post: #57 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott wrote: |
| Could it be child abuse to convince your kids that alien abductions, telekinesis, and psychics are real despite the lack of convincing scientific evidence? |
If you're asking me, then IMO, no, none of the above is child abuse. If the above is abuse simply because there might be a lack of compelling scientific evidence, then it calls into question all sorts of things we teach our children that we - as individual parents - have no compelling scientific evidence for.
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OTavern
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| Post: #58 Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| Scott wrote: |
Whether or not teaching kids about demons is an issue that depends on two sub-issues: The nature of the belief in demons and the nature of child abuse. I could understand your view of the latter if you all could at least provide a yes or no answer to the question I asked in post #44:
| Scott wrote: |
| Could it be child abuse to convince your kids that alien abductions, telekinesis, and psychics are real despite the lack of convincing scientific evidence? |
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There is no lack of scientific evidence that atheistic beliefs bring about more genocidal government actions than theistic beliefs. So perhaps you should be consistent and teach your children that atheism is a dangerous belief system.
See Post #6: http://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3007 |
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Homicidal Pacifist
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Location: Your mom's house. Ha.
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| Post: #59 Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:36 am Post subject: . |
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Meleagar and OTavern -
You seem to be saying that no one should tell anyone how to raise their own kids. To some degree I agree that, but at the same time we have Child Protective Services for a reason. I don't think that they are only concerned with physical child abuse and issues of proper diet.
I do not think it is appropriate for a parent to raise a child by telling the child daily whatever the parent believes is the truth, necessarily.
Examples:
Is it okay for a parent to constantly tell their child that Satan is their creator and that Satan wants the child to go out and murder every Christian that he finds? Or for the child to spend every waking moment praying to Satan asking him to send plagues and brainwash Christians, rather than go to school and have a social life?
Is it okay for a parent to say that the child is possessed and that they will never be able to get rid of the demon within and so they as well abandon all hope and lock themselves in the house for the rest of their lives?
Or that evil ghosts are in the house watching the child sleep at night? Or that when they die they will rise from the grave as a zombie to feed on human flesh?
Or that there are worms in the child's brain that dictate what every thought and action of the child?
Or that God hates the child and is the cause of every bit of suffering that the child experiences; that God can't wait to send the kid to Hell?
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We have no proof that these things will or will not happen. We have reasonable assumption, but that can be varied by subjectivity. The point is that some things should not be forced on a child and the parent should keep a watchful eye on what ideas they plant in their kids' heads.
Are the above examples brainwashing techniques and child abuse? I think so.
I think the best approach would be to say, "Well, little Jimmy, I believe that there are worms in my brain controlling my every thought and action, but I could be wrong. Other people do not believe what I believe and they might be right. Or they might be wrong. This is one of those things that you need to figure out on your own. Here, take a look at this brainscan I had done yesterday. Do you see any worms? I see worms. Oh, you don't see brain worms? Do you think it makes sense for me to think that I have brain worms since there is no evidence of them? Can you think of any rational reason why I actually would have brain worms even though we can't see them? Do you think they can real even if we can't see them? It's a big universe and weird things happen every day and people discover new occurences that they thought were impossible, but brain worms have never been proven to be real. Brain worms or no brain worms, we can all live a happy life. Again, my opinions and interpretations could be wrong or right. Think it over and decide for yourself."
Rather than saying, "Jimmy! I've got brain worms! You've got brain worms! WE'VE ALL GOT BRAIN WORMS!!! Be afraid. Be very, very afraid. / Don't worry little buddy, there's a solution. We just have to shove this ice pick deep into our ears and that will kill the brain worms."
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Belinda
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| Post: #60 Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:46 am Post subject: |
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Athena wrote:
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| Demons are not like like lions, tigers and bears. Demons are not real, and telling your children that they are real can result in far worse than scaring them. It can result in serious mental disorder, and unacceptable behaviors in their adult lives. |
This is on the record. Not only demons. The special belief in holy predestination inculcated by a certain Scottish presbyterian sect has given a lot of custom to psychiatrists.
God stuff cannot be countered with such self defence as one can and does use to counter disease germs, terrorists, rapists, and wild animals. God stuff is for social control and is therefore said to be infallibly powerful.
The demons in e.g. Dracula and other fanciful horrors are not harmful because no responsible parent will tell the child they are true.
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