Putting Ourselves In The Hot Seat

[Homicidal Pacifist]

I understand that it is very difficult and uncomfortable to put ourselves in the hot seat. By that I mean to really evaluate our own lives and actions so as to realize our own inconsistencies and hypocisies.

But I feel that questioning our beliefs and actions is vital to inner growth and the proper evolution of humanity.

So... I'll go first.

I recently stopped eating meat out of a moral concern for the wellfare and right to life of animals.

My girlfriend does not share my opinion on this matter, though we do agree on most other important issues.

I'm torn between standing firm in my own convictions and allowing her to live as she pleases (which entails having dead animals in our house).

I do not want to be fueled by the suffering of these dumb furry little monsters, but the question becomes - is it hypocritical of me to buy meat for her to eat or is that simply me appreciating her own free will?

We share the finances so it could be seen as our money, not mine, that is paying for the meat. But if I actually do the shopping?

Am I betraying my moral beliefs by not slapping the chicken sandwich out of her hand? Another one of my beliefs is respect for individuality; but that only goes so far.

For example, I am also, and more staunchly, against the killing of humans. So is my girlfriend. I will not kill a person to save her life and I will not eat an animal if she asks me to. And I would not allow her to take a human life. So is hypocritical that I do not stop her from eating animals?

As I said, I respect human life (even the guilty enemy) more than animal life because of the immense possibilities that the human life possesses. That does not mean that it's okay, at least in my mind, to hurt and kill animals simply because we're too lazy and disinterested to start a new diet out of respect for their safety.

So maybe the varying levels of respect that I hold for the animal VS the human negates hypocrisy. Maybe not. What do you think?

Another example would be that I am in the process of getting rid of the leather that I own but I can't yet afford a new couch (my current couch is leather). Should I throw out the couch and sit on the floor or is it enough that I am actively pursuing replacing it? After all, no additional animals are being killed because I'm sitting on a leather couch. But I don't want it around. But I also don't like sitting on the floor. I think I'm gonna get rid of it before I replace it. Am I dumb?

Another example would be that I believe it is never morally okay to kill humans. I also believe that it is wrong to kill animals to eat them or to use their skin and fur for own purposes. Even in defense I believe it is wrong to kill people, but I'm not sure about the morality of killing an animal in defense.

If a lion is chasing me or my girlfriend and I have a gun and a clear shot, I'm not yet sure what would be the moral course of action given my silly philosophy. Right now my feeling is that, due to lack of a soul and the lower level of sentience and life possibility of the lion VS the human, it might be morally okay to kill the lion. Oh, I know... carry bear mase or tranquilizer darts instead of a gun. But if it had to come down to killing?

Should it matter what the reason is for killing an animal? Or what kind of animal? What about for killing a human?

So there you have it. I have made myself very uncomfortable.

I encourage all of you to do the same in your lives and in this thread.

My evaluation of my life will not end here. I will consider to think about all of this and more and you can help guide me in the right direction if I am not headed that way already.

Or maybe there's nothing wrong with being a hypocrite and a liar or maybe it depends on the severity of the case at hand.

Know thyself, be happy and proud of thyself, and never be content with only temporary, mind-numbing entertainment.

- cheers
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"If Ignorance Is Bliss, Then Knock The Smile Off My Face!"

- Rage Against The Machine

[JPhillips]

Homocidal Pacifist

Sounds like you want others to be your conscience and tell you what to do. I can't do that but I will tell you what I think.

Although I respect animal life, I do not respect animal life the same way I respect human life, nor do I see them as having equal rights as humans. It doesn't have as much to do with intelligence as it does with the fact that humans have a consciousness and self awareness. It is about having a sense of ethics and morality. Animals cannot be killed before they have a chance to learn something useful from their lives to take to the next. At least not most of them. I could never eat a chimpanzee or a dolphin.

I love dogs. They make great pets. It seems to me they are more aware of their own existence than most people give them credit for. However, I don't think they lie awake at night wondering about what happens to them after they die or have feelings of guilt over chasing a cat up a tree earlier in the day.

I also believe in reincarnation. I don't know what to think of the belief that animals reincarnate as a group rather than as an individual, but it is an interesting concept. I do believe animals, like humans, will reincarnate to live another life.

To sum it up, we should think very hard before ending the life of a human who may still have a lot to learn in this life. I believe animals just lose their lives and then just start over in another life.

We should all advocate, at the very least, humane treatment of all animals, including the ones which are to be slaughtered for food. Death should come as quickly and painlessly as possible. I respect vegetarians, but think ultimately the choice as to whether to be a meat eater or not is mine.

I believe in evolvement of the human soul. Maybe as a species we are in the process of evolving to the
point that we will all become vegetarians someday in the people. If you are in this sense, more highly evolved than meat eaters, feel blessed but do not judge the meat eaters so harshly.

Your beliefs will shape your thinking. If you do not have the same beliefs as I do, what I have said may not mean much to you.

[Homicidal Pacifist]

I am not trying to get you to make up my mind for me; it's just that I value you guys' opinions as I may have missed something in my philosophies.

Another example -

I don't think I am at all passive in my stance against evil and men who commit evil. So much so that I don't I don't think it's right to commit evil to stop evil. Though I have recently been focusing more on the varying degrees of evil actions VS positive outcomes.

I think it's wrong to kill 1 million people to save 2 million people, but since I believe it is also wrong to lie, should I not tell a little lie to save millions of people? Would I be betraying my own moral beliefs by lying and is that okay considering that we're talking about a little lie VS millions of lives?

Though I have MUCH left to accomplish in this life, I am frequently suicidal and am ready to be done with all the nonsense of this life. But perhaps it is unfair of me to ask others who are not redy to either move on to something free of these pains (by going to Heaven) or to just be non-existent in the event that there is no afterlife. I'm just very tired. Luckily I have I am also somewhat hyperactive. Perhaps I should allow others to kill me or allow me to die but that I should kill others or allow them to die... AT ALL COSTS. But does that include killing them? And isn't that a betrayal of the things I just said? Are we bound to betrayers of either this or that. Perhaps it is best to not delve into these hard questions and just focus on entertainment so as to avoid the inevitable depression that is apparently inherent in attempting to become better than we are or find resolute moral answers. But I worry that if I abandon my moral quests I will end up directly hurting a lot of people. I'm sorry to burden you all with idiocy, I am very tired.

It's incredibly hard to create a perfect moral philosophy, much less live up to it.

"Idealism is youth's final luxury."
- Quills (Michael Caine's character)

Maybe so, but I certainly hope not.
_________________
"If Ignorance Is Bliss, Then Knock The Smile Off My Face!"

- Rage Against The Machine

[Meleagar]

Having free will, I'm not constrained by any ethical or moral obligations. I do as I wish, not as I must.

In application, however, I've found that my life is more enjoyable if those around me can trust and rely on me, so I generally operate according to conduct codes I've tailored to accomplish this. However, since I'm not actually bound to such codes internally, it doesn't negatively affect me at all, nor cause me a moment's hesitation if I - at some point - decide to act in a manner contrary to those self-invented codes.

They are, after all, just contrivances I use for my enjoyment. This effectively removes me from the quandaries such as you've depicted, and similarly removes virtually all guilt and inner conflict.
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http://spiritualintelligentdesign.blogspot.com/

[JPhillips]

Homicidal Pacifist

I can see why you are very tired. You are too full of worry and guilt to enjoy life. I don't even know if you think you have the right to enjoy life.

I bet you are much harder on yourself than others are. Do the best you can to be moral without wearing yourself out. Just know that trying and living to be better is good enough.

Do not think of God as a harsh, punishing God. Think of Him as a good father who wants only what is best for his son; who wants his son to be happy. What else would you want for your son?

[wanabe]

[ape]

[Homicidal Pacifist]

JP -

Thanks for the encouragement. I don't hold myself to such a high standard because I fear God. I do it to make Him, others, and myself happy. Granted, I'm not always happy because I am constantly challenging myself rather than relaxing. But I feel I must for the betterment of us all.


Wannabe -

Thanks for the insight. I'm not positive that I wouldn't kill for my girl, but I'm so hell-bent on reformation rather than survival or suffering. She's cool with it by the way (one in a million). But I still question this philosophy and my bond to it.

Over-population does not affect my moral beliefs. Let's all die.

I think there is a fine line between developing inner growth and being too hard ourselves. I am happy most of the time, but depression kicks in once every few weeks to several times per week. It's worth it.

As far as your own hot seat, growth is a slow process but it can be sped up. One just needs a clear enough goal and proper motivation (which can be found internally and externally). I do not think we should blame human fallibilty for our choices, though we should be aware that we cannot be perfect. But we can come closer than where we are now.

Perhaps if the moment comes to kill, you will strain yourself to allow your moral beliefs to override bloodlust and adrenaline. The more we practice and discuss our philosophies the stronger commitment we will have to them when the sh*t hits the fan. Be a stubborn asshole.

Thanks.
_________________
"If Ignorance Is Bliss, Then Knock The Smile Off My Face!"

- Rage Against The Machine

[Belinda]

[Homicidal Pacifist]

The value of self-reflection is that we can soon discover if it is us who is behaving weakly (through hypocrisy) or if it is our philosophy itself which is weak (in which case, updates might need to be made).


Belinda -

You almost made me cry.

Thank you.
_________________
"If Ignorance Is Bliss, Then Knock The Smile Off My Face!"

- Rage Against The Machine

[Scott]

Great topic!

We all have are own values. I do not eat meat, but I do not treat other people rudely for choosing to eat meat nor do I lecture them on what I do not like about eating meat. There are things I do with which others may disagree.

As a rule of thumb, I think it makes more sense to worry about oneself than rudely condemn others. Let's say person A doesn't vote in local elections out of laziness and/or apathy but puts effort into only buying 'fair trade' goods. Let's say person B puts a lot of effort into saying informed about local politics and casting their valuable vote at the local level but out of laziness and/or apathy buys clothes without much consideration for whether or not they were produced by slave labor in a sweat shop. What benefit comes from person A condemning person B for buying slave-produced goods and person B condemning person A for not voting? In another example, what use is the animal-killing anti-abortionist rudely condemning one who gets abortions and the vegetarian abortion-getter condemning the meat-eating anti-abortionist?

How about we pat each other on the back for what the effort we do put in to helping others and improving ourselves? Then instead of rudely and vigorously condemning each other, how about we politely and open-mindedly inform others of why we follow certain principles (e.g. voting, buying fair trade, not eating meat, not getting abortions, etc.) but then go back to worrying about improving ourselves. Instead of yelling at others for not improving themselves in a way that makes them more like us, we can look at what ways we can improve ourselves to make us more like them.

Thanks!

Scott
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Online Philosophy Club - Please tell me how to improve this website!

[ape]

[Dewey]

Hi Homicidal Pacifist,

Your ethics dictate no meat. Your girlfriend’s ethics permit meat. No problem!

A myriad of philosophers have already warned us about the tricky nature of ethics. They are more than figments of the imagination – but not a great deal more. They are entirely subjective standards, ideas formed by your personal conception of what benefits you – not someone else, just you. So, as Scott says: “…it makes more sense to worry about oneself than rudely condemn others.” There are no universal ethics, no right ethics, no wrong ethics. It’s a nuisance to have to cook separate meals. But put up with it. Toast each other. Enjoy.

But I nearly forgot, there’s the religious factor. Maybe God has dictated the ethic to be followed in this matter. I do understand, however, that His edict is not clearly understood one way or the other at this time. So it looks like you can choose to abstain without worrying about the lamb on your girlfriend’s plate. I heard it was also on Jesus’s plate.
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"Always recognize that human individuals are ends, and do not use them as means to your end. "
-Immanuel Kant

[Homicidal Pacifist]

Scott and Dewey -

Thanks for the replies (though I wish more people would join me in open self-scrutiny of their own lives a bit more).

So, don't judge huh? Do not rudely condemn others.

I get your point, and I try to stay as compassionate as possible while attempting to make solid arguments against certain courses of action, but it's hard for me hold back completely when I am trying to stamp out an injustice.

But how far am I to be expected to take this respect for individuality? Like I said, I would not sit idly by as my girlfriend went on a killing rampage claiming the lives of every child she saw. So why is the line drawn at human life rather than animal life. That's just an example and could possibily be ended by saying that humans are more important than animals (which I agree with, though that does not give us free reign to do as we please to them).

I believe that if it were socially acceptable or the norm to slaughter children left and right, you fellas might be telling me not to interfere with the right to subjective morality or amorality of my murderous girlfriend's actions. As is the case with eating meat. (I assume).

If I am to push one belief on her (one that saves children), why am I not supposed to push another onto her (one that saves animals)?

There is something in me that has been saying that it is not the same severity and that I need'nt worry. But I worry that that is the result of a lifetime of social conditioning and apathy towards animals (which is the reason I ate meat to begin with).

I fear I will end up alone with my 'righteousness'.

In any case, I suppose we are all sinners/criminals in many ways and my goal is not to ostrisize everyone, nor be ostrisized myself (at least entirely). We must all grow together. But complacency can be just as repulsive as intolerance.
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"If Ignorance Is Bliss, Then Knock The Smile Off My Face!"

- Rage Against The Machine

[Belinda]

What I think the 'hot seat' means is willingness to undertake personal responsibility for one's own decisions.What existentialists call 'authenticity'.Authenticity isn't bossing others around or trying to convert others. So many people are unfree because they don't think things through, or having tried to think things through give up because some problems simply have no solutions.Authenticity involves being able to live with uncertainty and with lack of control over others' behaviour. It seems to me that being able to share a dwelling and a life with someone who has ideas that conflict with one's own is one sign of mature adulthood.
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Socialist