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Scott
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Post: #31  Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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Christians have done things that most people and I find commendable. Nonetheless, I still believe that organized Christianity tends to represent the opposite of love, forgiveness, equality of mankind, turning the other cheek as opposed to taking an eye-for-an-eye, non-materialism, private prayer, etc. I think that the more involved in Christianity someone is, the more they tend to follow and/or preach non-forgiveness, casting the first stone, materialism, vengeance, hatred, bigotry, living by the sword, hierarchical power structures among humankind, and public prayer in lavish, expensive, materialistic buildings.
Needless to say, I have met loving Christians (and people of other religions) who care more about peacefully alleviating poverty, being charitable and indiscriminately helping their fellow human than about getting revenge, competing for material wealth, condemning homosexuals, engaging in violence and so forth. But that seems to me like the exception, not the rule.
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Juice
Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1843
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| Post: #32 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:24 am Post subject: |
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Scott-Not to change the subject but I hope to illustrate a point. Many people look to India as a beacon of spirituality. I mean they don't kill cows. They even have temples where rats and other living creatures are allowed to live unharmed, they even gently sweep the ground ahead of them in order that they not inadvertently kill an insect on the path. They are vegetarian which is often promoted as a peace encouraging diet. Very enlightened.
A not so much reported problem in India is infanticide. It appears that these enlightened peoples who find it difficult to exterminate rat infestations and disease ridden insects, who worship cows have no problem killing infants especially if they are girls or suffer from some sort of defect at birth. Since the adoption of legal abortions, clinics have become death mills.
No less disturbing is the forced sterilization of mentally impaired woman. Not to mention a slave market, and slave prostitution rings where families sell boys and girls as young as eight to be trained for sex.
Granted there are Christian zealots out there who passionately express some views which are not mainstream or modern enough but really compared to what goes on in the rest of the world I think I can tolerate a little disagreement and debate on moral principles and in keeping with the democratic process.
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When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.
An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis
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Homicidal Pacifist
Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 541
Location: Your mom's house. Ha.
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| Post: #33 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:20 am Post subject: . |
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So if Jesus was cool with killing people why did He bother to say love your neighbor and your enemy, be merciful, forgiving and kind, turn the other cheek, don't stone the whore, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you, etc.?
Why didn't He say. "Except in these cases..." if He really believed in extenuating cricumstances?
Hell, why didn't Christ go around saying, "Okay everybody. God wants you to kill murderers, rapists, pedophiles, and terrorists. Don't feel bad for skinning them alive, they were bad guys and they deserved to die. So here is your list. Go out and be hitmen for God," if that's really what God wants from us? Not once did Jesus ever say to kill evil men; no matter how heinous their crimes.
Why didn't He himself kill some bad guys?
Did Jesus f*ck up by not killing evil men who were killing and persecuting good people? Was Christ guilty of inaction because He didn't kill to stop the injustices of the world? Was He wrong to think that words of forgivness and love and an example of moral living were better than killing each other?
Again I say, Christ offers mercy to ALL, and ALL are undeserving. How dare we accept undeserved mercy and not extend it to our fellow sinners!
(For God so loved THE WORLD that He sent His only son to die so that WHOEVER shall believe...)
Christ made salvation and forgiveness available to Judas, Barabass, the guards who killed Him, EVEN YOU. And all you can do is say, "Hey thanks I could USE that", and then go spit on forgivness and mercy and prevent salvation to those who need it the most (the sinners/the lost) by killing each other.
I want detailed answers to each of those points from all you "Christians"; you "Followers of Christ".
iamsosickofthis,youpeoplemakemewanttoputaf*ckinbul letinmyhead.youhavenoideahowluckyyouarethatiamnota svengefulasyoubecausewithmylevelofdeterminationiwo uldbewillingtobecomethehypocritethatidespiseifitme antendingyourignorantliesandself-deception.butalas yourhypocrisyisSOdisgustingthatihavenootheroptionb uttobeyouroppositewhichmeansaloowingyoutoliveyourb ullsh*tlife.reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeepent!
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Last edited by Homicidal Pacifist on Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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OTavern
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 368
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| Post: #34 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| Scott wrote: |
| It's ironic that, as I see it, the more a person is involved with Christianity the more they tend to follow the opposite of what Jesus taught: hatefulness, non-forgiveness, revengefulness, material greed, public prayer, casting the first stone, etc. |
I suspect that is only your perception because you want to see it that way. Everyone has tendencies opposite to forgiveness, love, generosity, etc. The discrepancy between ideal and real Is much more apparent in Christians because the ideal is so high. You can only use that as a case against Christianity if you are promoting ethical mediocrity. In that case it is very easy not to be a hypocrite. |
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Ihateusernames
Joined: 26 Nov 2009
Posts: 2
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| Post: #35 Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Juice wrote: |
It just does not do well to take such a limited understanding of scripture and then apply it to such a limited understanding of the human condition.
The interpretation is "Thou Shall Not Murder". Also implicit in scripture is the recommendation that one exercise sound judgment with a firm commitment to God, and also that an individual be solid in their convictions. No person can judge anyone unrepentant or repentant, this means that no person can judge a persons relationship with God.
So who is man allowed, by God, to judge, a person by the crime he has committed and by the severity of that crime. It is not beyond scripture that a person should pay for his crimes and when those crimes are of such a nature that it warrants death then man has the responsibility to, "Purge the evil person from your midst" (1 Corinthians 5:12-13). Not doing so denotes an acceptance of that crime and subsequently an acceptance of evil.
Jesus specifically stated that he did not come to this earth to change the laws of Moses or the Father but to make a new covenant with man by offering salvation to all men through Him.
Now whether one wants to believe in scripture or not is up to the individual, but what is more hypocritical is using scripture out of context. If one wants to use scripture to present a particular personal ideology then that ideology is not Gods but your own so take responsibility for it and stop using God and his Word unless one has taken the steps to accept God as His word, and all of His Words to make sound judgments with firm conviction.
Further it doesn't advance an argument when one uses hyperbole, exaggerations and redefinitions to make a point. It is a distortion of reality, psychosis, maybe. |
Hah, this might be a good way to make an enemy my first post here, but I found it really funny that you used 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 in essence to say the bible endorses capital punishment... and then you go on to say it is "hypocritical [to use] scripture out of context." Maybe you should re-read that passage before using it to justify killing.
| Scott wrote: |
It's ironic that, as I see it, the more a person is involved with Christianity the more they tend to follow the opposite of what Jesus taught: hatefulness, non-forgiveness, revengefulness, material greed, public prayer, casting the first stone, etc. |
I honestly think you should replace the word 'Christianity' with 'Organized Religion'. The phrase "involved with Christianity" would inherently assume that they were practicing and espousing the same thing as Christ taught. Obviously this leads to a statement like "The more a person is <loving, caring..etc>, the more they are not loving, and not caring..etc." Kinda doesn't make sense.
You may say people like Mother Teresa was not the norm therefor you are able to discount them in your own personal opinion, but throughout the ages there are many, many authentic christian examples, so I find it hard to authoritatively say what you do.
On a personal note, I do agree with you that the more a person uses a group of Christians (church) as a social outlet instead of a spiritual outlet (group worship) the more they fall into the opposite of what Jesus taught: hatefulness, non-forgiveness, revengefulness, material greed, public prayer, casting the first stone, etc because they learn the motions of Christianity without any of its heart so obviously they wont apply Jesus's teachings to their life when they desire to be hateful, arrogant or whatever.
Anyway, hi people!  |
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ape
Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 2762
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| Post: #36 Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott wrote: |
Christians have done things that most people and I find commendable. Nonetheless, I still believe that organized Christianity tends to represent the opposite of love, forgiveness, equality of mankind, turning the other cheek as opposed to taking an eye-for-an-eye, non-materialism, private prayer, etc. I think that the more involved in Christianity someone is, the more they tend to follow and/or preach non-forgiveness, casting the first stone, materialism, vengeance, hatred, bigotry, living by the sword, hierarchical power structures among humankind, and public prayer in lavish, expensive, materialistic buildings.
Needless to say, I have met loving Christians (and people of other religions) who care more about peacefully alleviating poverty, being charitable and indiscriminately helping their fellow human than about getting revenge, competing for material wealth, condemning homosexuals, engaging in violence and so forth. But that seems to me like the exception, not the rule. |
bold by ape
Hi Scott, JC agrees with your analysis!
Matthew 24
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2And Jesus said unto them,
See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Thanx for helping spread the Love like butter on the bread of the world by and thru this Forum! |
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Juice
Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1843
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| Post: #37 Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:53 am Post subject: |
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ihun-What I find most interesting is your belief that you have the power to make enemies and more importantly that I would want to extend that privilege to you. Fortunately, I visit this site to engage in challenging intellectual discourse with ethereal friends as I believe most of us do. If it is your intent to find enemies I suggest you look no further than the nearest mirror and then try to reconcile a difference after you overcome your disgust.
It would seem that you also lack critical thinking since my post, to which you refer, indicates that the Bible does not make an implicit endorsement of capital punishment, since it never uses that terminology, but what the Bible does endorse is a fair and equitable system of justice. While the Bible does not have a twelve step program of justice it does expect people to behave towards their fellow man with peaceful conduct, without transgression, no person has authority to oppress another, as you would do by wanting me as an enemy.
| Quote: |
| Acts 7:24 Seeing one of them wrongfully treated he took his part, and secured justice for the ill-treated man by striking down the Egyptian. |
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| Acts 28:4 When the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said one to another, "No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped from the sea, yet Justice has not allowed to live." |
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| 1 Kings 3:28 All Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do justice. |
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| Job 34:17 Shall even one who hates justice govern? Will you condemn him who is righteous and mighty? |
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| Psalms 37:28 For Yahweh loves justice, and doesn't forsake his saints. They are preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off. |
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| Psalms 103:6 Yahweh executes righteous acts, and justice for all who are oppressed. |
I do not believe that our justice system randomly executes individuals if they are truly repentant for the crimes they commit but rather holds to Biblical teachings when an individual commits a crime for some spiritual gain, meaning that the crime made him happy. When someone takes another persons life which gives them pleasure then it becomes an inhuman crime. As I have stated elsewhere "we cannot kill death". A murderer who kills for pleasure is spiritually dead.
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When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.
An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis
Fight the illusion! |
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Ihateusernames
Joined: 26 Nov 2009
Posts: 2
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| Post: #38 Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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I find it humorous that you focus on the light side of my post and thus assume I was saying that I *wanted* to make enemies.
Anyway, all I directed at you you was that you took a passage of scripture out of context in your first post, and then turned around to scold people who do that. I just found it ironic that's all.
I actually agree with you on your biblical stance. The difference between murder and someone being killed is rather straightforward... |
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Juice
Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1843
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| Post: #39 Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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ihun-I find it "funny" that I must once again point out intellectual facilities which do not understand intellectual sarcasm. Glad to meet you, hope you hang out more.
While I will agree that some disagreement as to my use of the passage is possible, when attributed to capital punishment, since it more specifically pertains to "pretentious" "believers" who do not "live" according to the law but "pretend" to, I think, as I've stated, it points out the rational of my post sited. I would encourage, (once again) that my posts be taken in context to its overall theme rather than just one certain particular. It is a shame that we only decide to nitpick passages, as some have want to do, without consideration to overall and overriding purpose of scripture, as has been similarly considered of my post.
A person versed in scripture will readily recognize the analogies.
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When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.
An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis
Fight the illusion! |
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