Virtues and the individual

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Maxcady10001
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Maxcady10001 »

What is the difference between obeying the unspoken rules, or spoken rules of societal living, and being virtuous? The difference is, as you say, fear. Fear of being arrested or ostracized. Can someone be virtuous out of fear? I don't believe an action can be described as virtuous if it is done out of fear.
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LuckyR
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by LuckyR »

Maxcady10001 wrote: December 11th, 2017, 1:07 am What is the difference between obeying the unspoken rules, or spoken rules of societal living, and being virtuous? The difference is, as you say, fear. Fear of being arrested or ostracized. Can someone be virtuous out of fear? I don't believe an action can be described as virtuous if it is done out of fear.
Wow, you must be a very scared person. For me, I can quite easily do the mental computation that it is in both my and society's best interest to stop at a red light. No fear required.

Similarly I can equally make the decision to donate to a charity. BTW, I hope you don't cheat on your tax return by claiming charitable contributions when you clearly don't believe in them.
"As usual... it depends."
Maxcady10001
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Yes, it is in your best interest because you're afraid of being hurt or dying. I don't know if that's the best example to use, as it illustrates my point of your fear.
Isn't claiming charitable contributions verified somehow? Especially if it is over a certain amount of money, it has to be. But as a student with no job I do not have to worry about this.
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LuckyR
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by LuckyR »

Maxcady10001 wrote: December 11th, 2017, 1:56 am Yes, it is in your best interest because you're afraid of being hurt or dying. I don't know if that's the best example to use, as it illustrates my point of your fear.
Isn't claiming charitable contributions verified somehow? Especially if it is over a certain amount of money, it has to be. But as a student with no job I do not have to worry about this.
Thanks for your pretending to know me and how my mind works better than I do, but trust me, I am quite accurate when I tell you that my decision to stop at red lights is a simple, logical risk vs benefit assessment, not a fear of jail or a ticket. Though perhaps you are equating such a risk assessment as "fear" of the risk. If so, you have diluted the meaning of the word fear to be essentially meaningless.

As to charitable contributions, they are only verified at an audit.
"As usual... it depends."
Maxcady10001
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Maxcady10001 »

Can you explain how fear is not involved in any risk vs benefit assessment? The entire reason the assessment is done is because of an unwanted conclusion, or fear of a certain conclusion.
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LuckyR
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by LuckyR »

Maxcady10001 wrote: December 11th, 2017, 2:22 am Can you explain how fear is not involved in any risk vs benefit assessment? The entire reason the assessment is done is because of an unwanted conclusion, or fear of a certain conclusion.
I predicted that you were equating risk assessment with "fear" of that risk. And you are free to use those words with those meanings.

However, it is my guess that common usage of the word fear does not include such a statistical/logical analysis. And if true would dilute the meaning of the word fear to such a degree that we would need a new word to describe what now is understood to be fear.
"As usual... it depends."
Maxcady10001
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Maxcady10001 »

I think it would only be so diluted if you were referring to a non personal statistical analysis. An example would be a risk/benefit analysis of a decision to be made by a business you have no stake in. But an analysis of whether or not your car would be hit by oncoming traffic has to involve fear on a somewhat personal level. And the analysis is being performed while sitting in traffic.
Eduk
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Eduk »

So. Let me try to explain my experiment a little more clearly.
1. Start with a population of X.
2. Assign a percentage chance of perfectly virtuous or perfectly unvirtuous. (In reality this would be a spectrum, but we can start simple).
3. Assign the population, randomly, into groups of size Y.
4. Run a test which either removes all the population of a group unless there at least one virtuous person is in the group or remove one (at random if more than one) virtuous person.
5. Then couple up, at random, the remaining population who produce Z offspring per group.
6. Virtuosity is inheritable at a 50/50 rate.
7. See how long the population survives.

So you could then play about with the initial size of the group. Play about with the chance of being virtuous and adjust the number of offspring. I may play about with the numbers myself, it would be simple to code.

Of course there are lots of simplifications to this model. One of the main considerations is that in real life you choose your groups and your sexual partners (to an extent). For example a virtuous person would wish to only be in groups with other virtuous people and mate with other virtuous people. Indeed a virtuous person in a group with only non virtuous people might decide that the best course of action (the most virtuous) is to let everyone die. Also the non virtuous person would likewise wish to be only in groups of virtuous people and to only mate with virtuous people. Of course in real life no one has perfect information and people are not perfectly virtuous or virtuous.

If it was a case of perfect knowledge then within a few generations there would be no non virtuous people.
Unknown means unknown.
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Albert Tatlock
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Albert Tatlock »

Eduk wrote: December 11th, 2017, 1:32 pm Of course there are lots of simplifications to this model.
I would say that's a serious underestimation but I don't suppose it matters while ever your grenades remain theoretical.
Eduk
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Eduk »

Do you ever consider what you are gaining?
Unknown means unknown.
Maxcady10001
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Maxcady10001 »

If the virtuous people continue dying, the trait for being virtuous is also going to die out in groups that are not completely virtuous because only the non virtuous people breed in these mixed groups.

However the problem with an entirely virtuous group is that they may all try to take the impact of the grenade, or they may not be able to decide who should take the impact because they are all perfectly virtuous. Which, brings me to this conclusion, if one person in a completely virtuous group takes the impact, doesn't that mean the others are less virtuous? If they are all arguing as to who is going to be the hero and take the impact, the ones who do not jump on the grenade are indeed less virtuous, and as the group continues to breed, the trait of virtuosity will be bred out, because the most virtuous people die and the less virtuous people continue breeding.

Although all completely non virtuous groups will be eliminated immediately, which means eventually the once completely virtuous group would die off, because the trait of virtuosity has been bred out.
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Albert Tatlock
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Albert Tatlock »

Eduk wrote: December 11th, 2017, 2:17 pm Do you ever consider what you are gaining?
Eduk, my only goal is to offend you, and, as per your advice, I am trying to achieve this by being accurate and pertinent. I sincerely hope that you are not now moving the goal posts in order to unfairly thwart my efforts.
Eduk
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Eduk »

Ah yes not just accuracy and pertinence.
Max it's not real life. Me second explanation removes all mention of a grenade. We simply remove one virtuous person. Everyone else proceeds.
Unknown means unknown.
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Albert Tatlock
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Albert Tatlock »

Eduk wrote: December 11th, 2017, 4:15 pm Me second explanation removes all mention of a grenade.
You can't just airbrush it out of existence, Eduk, it's on record.
Eduk
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Re: Virtues and the individual

Post by Eduk »

Lol..
Unknown means unknown.
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