Philosophy Forums
Welcome to the Philosophy Forums! If you already are a member, please log in. If you are not a member, please join the forums now. It's completely free, and all viewpoints are welcome.


If there is a God, why is there evil?

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 15, 16, 17
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Philosophy Discussion Forum Index // Philosophy of Religion and Theism
View previous topic :: View next topic ::
Author Message
JPhillips



Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 207

Post: #241   PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
There is evil because there is ignorance. God gave us free will to choose between good and evil . We choose evil over good when we think it will make us feel good at the moment or best serves our own selfish desires and purposes. We commit evil and are willing to risk the consequences based upon how good it makes us feel in the moment. Usually we think it will more than likely go unpunished because we do not expect to get caught. Sometimes people get so caught up in their own bad behavior that they allow it to spiral out of control. The more a person behaves a certain way, the more it becomes an established pattern or a bad habit which becomes extremely difficult to break. Additionally, we become desensitized and feel less guilt after numerous repetitions. When we knowingly choose to do something we know is wrong, either we are not concerned as to how our actions affect others, or we feel the benefits outweigh the costs such as the feeling s of the impending guilt that may come later.

On a smaller scale of committing evil, you have men cheating on their wives or people cheating other people out of money in a business transaction. On a larger scale, you have sadistic dictators who enjoy hurting the people they should be protecting. It is much easier to understand the former than it is to understand the latter, since sadism does not appeal to most of us. A desire for power and control over others undoubtedly plays a major role. Also, it has been shown that many people who hate others and want to hurt others also hate themselves. This could become a vicious cycle, as the more they hurt others, the more they hate themselves. Think of how many times you’ve heard of abused children who grow up and abuse the people they love. Their sense of worth was surely greatly diminished as children. They tend to blame themselves. They feel unworthy of love rather than to cast blame on the parent who abused them. Feelings we have as a child can be most difficult to overcome as we get older.

If you truly understand the concept of free will, you know that God cannot choose to allow the small sins and act against the large sins, in a way which would violate the laws of nature which He created. God acts through his faithful flock of people who fight against evil and are willing to die to do so. In our day to day existence we think God has deserted us. When we stop and realize how little time we are on earth compared to how long we will live after we die, it becomes more meaningful as to why God allows us to hurt each other in order to learn to love each other. We are all connected so that evil committed against one is committed against all. Until we all learn this lesson, we will remain ignorant and we will continue to hurt each other. Once we realize the principle of Karma, or the Golden Rule, or the meaning of the Christian teaching of an eye for an eye, we will understand that in order to be free from pain we must stop causing pain.

I believe we are still in the early learning stages of our spiritual development. If you compare where the world is today, as a whole, as to where it was in the Dark Ages, you might agree. In the Dark Ages, crowd of people sometimes entertained themselves by viewing prisoners as they were being publicly tortured and executed by order of the king. Surely the world as a whole, and especially the more advanced nations, has made progress.

When each and every one of us is capable and strives to live in accordance with the teachings and examples set by the Buddha, or Jesus Christ, or Gandhi, then we will see the disappearance of evil in the world.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Meleagar



Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 376

Post: #242   PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:53 am    Post subject: Re: If there is a God, why is there evil? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
Floyd wrote:
If there is a God, why is there evil? Why do bad things happen to good people? Why is there so much needless suffering in the world, from natural disasters and such? Why would a loving God do this?


The short answers are: God may not be loving in the same sense that you use the word; or, what is going on in the world is not what you think is going on.

You might be asking a question like, why does a movie director allow such evil to exist in their movies? Only, there is no **actual** evil going on in the movie, because it is all a staged presentation that all the actors have agreed to participate in, and some of the actors may not even be real - they might just be computer generated characters.

The existence of a god of some sort is a necessary fundamental aspect of existence. Without a god of some sort, existence and debate thereof collapses into incoherency. I suggest that it isn't that reality contradicts the likelihood of the existence of God, but rather just your particular concept of God.

A lot of people feel betrayed by their belief in the god they grew up believing in when they see how the world is; how can a kind, loving, benevolent God allow such things to exist? Then we get angry at having been fooled, and then we throw the baby out with the bath water, not realizing that we actually require a god of some sort for existence to be coherent and meaningful.

Bad things appear to happen in the world, but I suggest that what you think is going on, is not really what is going on.

Also, unless there is a God, there cannot be evil. If there is no evil, then your question is incoherent. The existence of evil doesn't contradict the idea that god exists; it proves that God must exist.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Philosophallic Soda



Joined: 15 Nov 2009
Posts: 14

Post: #243   PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
If everything was nice and peaceful, life would be boring.

But thanks the Lord Almighty, life is all about having enemies and spending your time thinking about how to screw them up.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SpiralsHappen



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 10

Post: #244   PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:34 am    Post subject: If there is a God, why is there evil? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
Evil is only a byproduct of mans various degrees of sickness. Certainly what wild animals and insects do to each other is never looked upon as evil. So if man with his freewill were not on the planet then there would be no evil even among all the other creatures, including dinosaurs.

Insead of calling it sin, consider the macrobiotic perspective and call it what it really is "sickness". Man with his freewill and greedy five senses will almost always find trouble. There is a order to the universe and from this order comes balance. We can notice balance when we realize something like our solar system and how its planets do not crash into each other. This would be chaos if the planets were not healthy and with out order. Man is no different. If he lives out of order then he becomes unhealthy and with chaos in his life. Live out of balance and live with less health and order.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JPhillips



Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 207

Post: #245   PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:29 am    Post subject: Why is there evil Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
SpiralsHappen

You make a valid point. Out of all God's creatures, man is the one who is concerned about what life will bring and what death will bring. Man's life is so complicated. He don't know what we want and usually when he thinks he wants something and gets it, he realizes it really wasn't what he wanted. In short, he drives himself crazy then does crazy things.

People blame God for evil, then get to the point they refuse to believe God exists because a loving God would not allow evil to happen. Funny, we are the ones who are responsible for evil and yet God still believes in us.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Belinda
Contributor


Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 2812

Post: #246   PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
If there is a God why is there evil? may be two separate questions.

There is moral evil such as bearing false witness or stealing.There is natural evil such as earthquakes, epidemics and wildfires.
_________________
Socialist
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OTavern



Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 368

Post: #247   PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:29 pm    Post subject: Re: If there is a God, why is there evil? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
Meleagar wrote:
Floyd wrote:
If there is a God, why is there evil? Why do bad things happen to good people? Why is there so much needless suffering in the world, from natural disasters and such? Why would a loving God do this?


The short answers are: God may not be loving in the same sense that you use the word; or, what is going on in the world is not what you think is going on.

You might be asking a question like, why does a movie director allow such evil to exist in their movies? Only, there is no **actual** evil going on in the movie, because it is all a staged presentation that all the actors have agreed to participate in, and some of the actors may not even be real - they might just be computer generated characters.

The existence of a god of some sort is a necessary fundamental aspect of existence. Without a god of some sort, existence and debate thereof collapses into incoherency. I suggest that it isn't that reality contradicts the likelihood of the existence of God, but rather just your particular concept of God.

A lot of people feel betrayed by their belief in the god they grew up believing in when they see how the world is; how can a kind, loving, benevolent God allow such things to exist? Then we get angry at having been fooled, and then we throw the baby out with the bath water, not realizing that we actually require a god of some sort for existence to be coherent and meaningful.

Bad things appear to happen in the world, but I suggest that what you think is going on, is not really what is going on.

Also, unless there is a God, there cannot be evil. If there is no evil, then your question is incoherent. The existence of evil doesn't contradict the idea that god exists; it proves that God must exist.


This is all very profound, and I suspect the very reason some do not believe in "a" God is that they are seeing the very idea of God from within a skewed perspective.

Example:

If God were all-powerful and all-knowing then God wouldn't allow or carry out event X.
God does or allows event X.
Therefore God cannot be all-powerful and all-knowing.

The presumption here is in the first premise, that somehow human beings, admittedly having limited knowledge and power would somehow intuitively know what an all-powerful or all-knowing being would do. The argument can only be valid if the first premise is proven true, but only an all-powerful and all-knowing being could know what an all-knowing and all-powerful being would allow or carry out. That is knowledge any other being with limited knowledge and power could not easily access, without a great deal of presumption.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Meleagar



Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 376

Post: #248   PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:55 am    Post subject: Re: If there is a God, why is there evil? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
OTavern wrote:

The presumption here is in the first premise, that somehow human beings, admittedly having limited knowledge and power would somehow intuitively know what an all-powerful or all-knowing being would do. The argument can only be valid if the first premise is proven true, but only an all-powerful and all-knowing being could know what an all-knowing and all-powerful being would allow or carry out. That is knowledge any other being with limited knowledge and power could not easily access, without a great deal of presumption.


This is why axiomatic "first things" or necessary fundamental principles must be accepted on faith; while they cannot be proven, they are necessary for rational debate and a coherent belief system/worldview.

Most of the arguments against god that I've encountered - such as the argument from evil - are mostly rhetorical, emotional appeals, but they are very effective; I convinced myself to be an atheist for many years due to a good argument from evil.

Eventually, however, I realized the argument was self-refuting; without an objective or transcendent moral standard, there is no such thing as meaningful evil, which renders the argument incoherent to begin with. The only reason there can be a meaningful theological argument from evil is if god exists; making the argument is a de facto admission that one accepts the existence of a transcendent moral standard, or else there would be no evil to argue from against the existence of a god.

Also, the argument is only about a particular kind of god, so it is apparent that by making such an argument one is focused on a particular god - one that lets bad things happen; usually, one only makes this argument because they have felt betrayed or angry at the idea of a god that created or allows evil, and feel it is foolish or stupid when others believe in what they consider to be a moral monster of a god.

When I was under the influence of such an argument, it really was just an intellectual justification for allowing myself to not believe in god and to feel superior to others who did. I find that a lot of anti-relgion, anti-"superstition", anti-God argument seems to be rooted in the deisire to feel intellectually superior to others.
_________________
http://spiritualintelligentdesign.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Wiggety



Joined: 16 Jan 2010
Posts: 2

Post: #249   PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: If there is a God, why is there evil? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
[quote="MyshiningOne"]
Floyd wrote:

Happiness cannot exist without sadness, just like a
light in a hallway or closet cannot exist without
the darkness to greet it.


Happiness can exist without sadness. You wouldn't notice that it existed because there would be no opposite to it, but nonetheless it would still exist. This can also be said about good and evil. Good can exist without evil in the same manner.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Santini



Joined: 20 Nov 2009
Posts: 106

Post: #250   PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
True, Wiggety, and nicely put.

Also, to say as some have said in this thread, that in essence "The ways of our Lord are mysterious" is to engage in one of the world's biggest cop-outs. Even fundamentalist believers, in some dark, barely explored crease in their brains, probably realize that.

All such an "answer" really means is that there is no known reasonable answer that explains a benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient God's inaction in such a horrific situation.

If one seriously examines this problem, one quickly surmises that the belief in an omnipotent, omniscient, and always benevolent god who exists in a world in which natural evil occurs must be relinquished

. . . or that one must declare oneself to be a lunatic on this matter who is not open to reasonable persuasion.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OTavern



Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 368

Post: #251   PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
Santini wrote:
True, Wiggety, and nicely put.

Also, to say as some have said in this thread, that in essence "The ways of our Lord are mysterious" is to engage in one of the world's biggest cop-outs. Even fundamentalist believers, in some dark, barely explored crease in their brains, probably realize that.

All such an "answer" really means is that there is no known reasonable answer that explains a benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient God's inaction in such a horrific situation.

If one seriously examines this problem, one quickly surmises that the belief in an omnipotent, omniscient, and always benevolent god who exists in a world in which natural evil occurs must be relinquished

. . . or that one must declare oneself to be a lunatic on this matter who is not open to reasonable persuasion.


I doubt it. It merely means that a person recognizes the limitations of their own understanding. If you can't do that then you must be holding the (mistaken) belief that your capacity to understand exceeds all possible knowledge that is "unknown" at the moment. Do you really believe that your intelligence is capable of understanding all that can be known? How would you know that? You couldn't. In which case, there must be the "mysterious" aspects of knowable reality that you cannot at this moment actually know.

As to your point that "...there is no known reasonable answer that explains a benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient God's inaction in such a horrific situation...," even leaving God out of the picture and just considering say the evil intentions of someone like Hitler, it is quite reasonable to say that there is no reasonable answer to why someone like Hitler carried out the atrocities he and his henchmen did. This is not a copout because evil is quite mysterious "on its own" - can you explain why it exists or why human beings would carry out the things they do at times? To merely say their physiology went awry is just as much a copout as the theist claim, because it doesn't explain why bad physiology would lead to that kind of behaviour necessarily.

The mere existence of that kind of evil is mysterious whether or not God is in the picture. God's existence may add a new dimension to consider, but it surely does not make evil more or less mysterious.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Belinda
Contributor


Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 2812

Post: #252   PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
Wiggety wrote
Quote:
Happiness can exist without sadness. You wouldn't notice that it existed because there would be no opposite to it, but nonetheless it would still exist. This can also be said about good and evil. Good can exist without evil in the same manner.


This may be happiness and it may be goodness, but it's not the sort of happiness and goodness that I prefer. I prefer conscious happiness and goodness that require sadness and evil for me to understand that I am happy or sad. Happiness and goodness can be got by immersing the subject in an ambience where there is no sadness nor evil. This is in fact done when a breed of pathogenic organisms is reared in ideal conditions in a lab. They want for nothing. Everything is provided to make their little lives easy and pleasant. The result after some generations is a breed of weakened organisms.Good for vaccinating other animals but no use to their own species.

Among human beings take a man who works hard and intelligently to build up a prosperous business from scratch and then provides his son with every possible comfort and luxury and freedom from stresses. The son turns out to be stupid and perhaps immoral because he has not had the opportunity to learn from risk taking and subsequent misfortunes.The son will eventually be unhappy, probably shorter lived and will not have learned how to live in the real world where people have to know both how to cooperate and how to be assertive.
_________________
Socialist
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Philosophy Discussion Forum Index // Philosophy of Religion and Theism All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 15, 16, 17
Page 17 of 17

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Check out our Philosophy Articles!


© 2007-2009 OnlinePhilosophyClub.com, Scott Hughes. | Please suggest ways to make the forums even better!