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| Do You believe in the Goddess Sophia |
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Chaoticjacket
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Post: #1  Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:32 pm Post subject: Belief in the Goddess Sophia/Wisdom |
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Ive started actively studying the goddess Sophia. The word philospophy actually stems from her philo-sophia. Well I was thinking the bible apparently states throughout that theres only one god. I was reading Proverbs 8, which stated that Sophia was right next to god while the earth was being created as well as dancing around him.
I recently read The Sophia Teachings: The emergence of the divine sophia in our time by Robert Powell, It said King Solomon actually prayed to the goddess Sophia to bless him with wisdom.
So from this can I accurately conclude there is more than one god in Christianity/Jewish beliefs.
We all know King James removed some books from the bible could these have divulged deeper into this. |
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Belinda
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| Post: #2 Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:24 am Post subject: |
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Certainly, Chaoticjacket, university trained theologists know perfectly well that the Bible describes more than one god. The god who we usually call God evolved with the help of the kings and the prophets from the god El**, this is all recorded in the Bible. When Jahweh was the one god for the tribes of Israel and Judah, other gods were believed to exist although Jahweh forbade their worship.Jahweh metamorphosed under the influence of the Prophets into a god of mercy and justice. All this is known to theologists and it's also known to any minister of religion who is trained in any decent theological college or seminary. Why they dont therefore teach it to their flocks is a mystery to me.
The Wisdom tradition in the Bible is indeed fascinating. Have you looked at Ecclesiastes and Proverbs? Was Solomon the author, or co-author of those books?
** The sky god, El, is an example of a common form of god for 'primitive' religions in various parts of the world. The traditional sky god in one West African tribe( I just cannot remember this god's name now) is said to have gone 'far far away' and although he is/was still acknowledged from time to time he is not terribly relevant, and mana of places and ancestor worship are more important for everyday religious observance.
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OTavern
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 413
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| Post: #3 Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Belinda wrote: |
| Certainly, Chaoticjacket, university trained theologists know perfectly well that the Bible describes more than one god. |
Correction, some university trained theologians are of the opinion that the Bible describes more than one god. Many university trained scholars do not see enough evidence to infer what you are. Definitely, a divine Trinity of three persons is more plausible and more widely accepted as an explanation for plural or infinitive uses of divine names or pronouns.
The Books of Ecclesiastes, Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) and Wisdom have been officially part of the Catholic Canon since the Council of Trent in 1546 and widely accepted by Christian theologians since the second century. However, these were not an accepted part of Hebrew Scripture but likely composed in the first few centuries BCE by Hellenized Jewish authors. Like the personification of God's authorship/command as the "Logos" (of Greek origin), the personification of "Wisdom" served to integrate Greek philosophical ideas into a more traditional Jewish cosmology and to expand classical Hebraic linguistic limitations. These do not imply polytheistic beliefs.
"Wisdom" is personified for lyrical or poetic effect in the Book of Wisdom, just as Christ is "the Word," Logos, or the "spoken act" or command of God in Genesis (God said, "Let there be light."), the "Wisdom" of God is the "logical order" embodied in creation, the thought behind the "Word" of God. There is no need to read into or interpret additional deities into the Hebrew Scriptures except to groundlessly promote some form of polytheism. The texts themselves imply nothing of the sort.
Note that the prayer in the first quote below is directed to God, not to Wisdom. Solomon is depicted as praying to God, not to a goddess called Wisdom.
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God of our ancestors, Lord of mercy, who by your Word have made all things, and in your Wisdom have fitted man to rule the creatures that have come from you, to govern the world in holiness and justice and in honesty of soul to wield authority, grant me Wisdom, consort of your throne, and do not reject me from the number of your children. (Wisdom 9:1-4)
She is a breath of the power of God, pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty; hence nothing impure can find a way into her. She is a reflection of the eternal light, untarnished mirror of God's active power, image of his goodness. (Wisdom 7:25-6) |
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Chaoticjacket
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 2
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| Post: #4 Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| Wisdom 8:2, 16, 18 tells us Solomon was considered to be married to Sophia. One of the many layers of symbolism attributed to the Song of Songs (also known as Song of Solomon or Canticle of Canticles) is that it speaks of Solomon's marriage to Holy Sophia. Wisdom 9:8-11 even tells us that Sophia instructed Solomon in building the Temple! |
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OTavern
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
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| Post: #5 Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| Chaoticjacket wrote: |
| Wisdom 8:2, 16, 18 tells us Solomon was considered to be married to Sophia. One of the many layers of symbolism attributed to the Song of Songs (also known as Song of Solomon or Canticle of Canticles) is that it speaks of Solomon's marriage to Holy Sophia. Wisdom 9:8-11 even tells us that Sophia instructed Solomon in building the Temple! |
The entire Old Testament speaks of God's relationship to His people Israel as like a husband to a wife. Moses, David, Solomon and the Prophets all use marriage and the "wedded" relationship to symbolize a deep unity between God and His people. Hosea is even instructed to go out and marry a whore to depict Israel's broken fidelity to God.
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| "Denounce your mother, denounce her, for she is not my wife nor am I her husband. Let her get rid of her whoring... I mean to make her pay for all the days she burned offerings to the Baals and decked herself with rings and necklaces to court her lovers, forgetting me. It is Yahweh who is speaking. (Hosea 2:2-15) |
Mystics also carry that relationship as symbolic of mystical union with God. It isn't meant to be taken literally. It means Solomon "united himself" with Wisdom, he allowed Wisdom to enter into the deepest recesses of his being. Wisdom is promised to anyone who follows the ways of the Lord. (Read the bold faced portions below)
In Wisdom 18:14, God's Word is also personified in the same way, but as a warrior, not a wife:
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When peaceful silence lay over all, and night had run half of her swift course, down from the heavens leaped your all-powerful Word; into the heart of a doomed land the stern warrior leaped. Carrying your unambiguous command like a sharp sword, he stood, and filled the universe with death; he touched the sky, yet trod the earth. |
This has been rightfully interpreted as symbolic of Christ (the Logos or Word of God) "becoming" man (touched the sky, yet trod the earth). Jesus likely alludes to the same passage in Matthew 10:34: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth: it is not peace I have come to bring, but a sword."
All of the Wisdom literature is symbolic.
Wisdom...
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"brings up her sons and cares for those who seek her. Whoever loves her loves life, those who wait on her early will be filled with happiness. Whoever holds her close will inherit honour, and wherever he walks, the Lord will bless him." (Eccles 4:11-14)
"My son from your earliest youth choose instruction, and till your hair is white you will keep finding Wisdom. Cultivate her like a plowman and the sower, and wait for her fine harvest...
...court her with all your soul, and with all your might keep her ways; go after her and seek her; she will reveal herself to you; once you hold her, do not let her go. For in the end you will find rest in her and she will take the form of joy for you: her fetters you will find are a strong defence, her harness, a robe of honour. (Eccles 6:18-30)
If you love listening you will learn, if you lend an ear, Wisdom will be yours. (Eccles 6:32)
Any man of sense recognizes Wisdom, and will respect anyone who has found her. (Eccles 18:28)
Wisdom consists entirely in fearing the Lord, and Wisdom is entirely constituted by the fulfilling of the Law. (Eccles 19:20)
The first man never managed to grasp her entirely, nor has the most recent one fully comprehended her; for her thoughts are wider than the sea, and her designs more profound than the abyss. (Eccles 24:28) |
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Belinda
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| Post: #6 Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:22 am Post subject: |
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(Wisdom 7:25-6)[/quote][/quote]
| OTavern wrote: |
| Belinda wrote: |
| Certainly, Chaoticjacket, university trained theologists know perfectly well that the Bible describes more than one god. |
Correction, some university trained theologians are of the opinion that the Bible describes more than one god. Many university trained scholars do not see enough evidence to infer what you are. Definitely, a divine Trinity of three persons is more plausible and more widely accepted as an explanation for plural or infinitive uses of divine names or pronouns. |
But even one of the other local gods, Baal, is described quite clearly in the OT. Which theologians dont agree that Jahweh metamorphosed during the history of a nomadic Near Eastern tribe from local god, to war god, to god of justice and mercy? The latter is the basic reason for Christianity!I learned this when I was 16 for my school certificate Scripture and had to remember Naboth's Vineyard as an illustration of God's justice as described by the prophet Isaiah.Can it be denied that there is a time-frame of sorts in the Old Testament?
As for the Holy Trinity, this was a much later invention than any conception of God in the Old Testament. The Holy Trinity of Father , Son and Holy Spirit is not mentioned even in the New Testament. It was not finalised until the Council of Nicea, hundreds of years after Jesus died.
The OT is apparently interested in the Bible as history, not as a devotional book, and I am trying to answer from what I have learned about history of ideas in the Bible.
| Quote: |
| The Books of Ecclesiastes, Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) and Wisdom have been officially part of the Catholic Canon since the Council of Trent in 1546 and widely accepted by Christian theologians since the second century. However, these were not an accepted part of Hebrew Scripture but likely composed in the first few centuries BCE by Hellenized Jewish authors. Like the personification of God's authorship/command as the "Logos" (of Greek origin), the personification of "Wisdom" served to integrate Greek philosophical ideas into a more traditional Jewish cosmology and to expand classical Hebraic linguistic limitations. These do not imply polytheistic beliefs. |
I accept, thanks.
| Quote: |
| "Wisdom" is personified for lyrical or poetic effect in the Book of Wisdom, just as Christ is "the Word," Logos, or the "spoken act" or command of God in Genesis (God said, "Let there be light."), the "Wisdom" of God is the "logical order" embodied in creation, the thought behind the "Word" of God. There is no need to read into or interpret additional deities into the Hebrew Scriptures except to groundlessly promote some form of polytheism. The texts themselves imply nothing of the sort. |
I accept, although I wonder if you condemn 'additional deities' such as Sophia , when they are so described for the purpose of poetic license. I did not assume that the OT believed in the actual physical, or supernatural, existence of any goddess.I also want to distinguish between 'The Wisdom Tradition' as per the books of Ecclesiastes and Proverbs, and the wisdom of God as creation of the logical order of nature.
Solomon's prayer is beautiful, and I accept your interpretation.
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ape
Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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| Post: #7 Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Chaoticjacket wrote: |
Ive started actively studying the goddess Sophia. The word philospophy actually stems from her philo-sophia. Well I was thinking the bible apparently states throughout that theres only one god. I was reading Proverbs 8, which stated that Sophia was right next to god while the earth was being created as well as dancing around him.
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Hi CJ!
Excellent!
Amazingly, I was also thinking of Proverbs 8 as I considered your question before I read your first para! . Great minds think alike or fools seldom differ in Love!
But from this pov:
Because God loves himself as all words and their opposites or negations, as per Mark 12:29-34, that Love means he loves all words as himself, and all words mean God, and God means all words, and Love means all words and all words mean Love!
This is why one of God's main names is: I am who or what I am or I am everything or I am all things, or I am what I will be or william, or I am, for short, since God is each word and all words and all things represent him. Exodus 3:14-15 and John 8:58.
So then, God personifies all words as Himself and all words are personified as Him!
So it follows that to love any word or person or place or thing --which are all words-- is to love God and The Word, and to hate any word is to hate God and the Word! Matthew 25:40. 1 John 4:20.
So God personifies/d Wisdom/Chokmah/Sophia just as he personifies/d Love in 1 Corinthians 13.
So to say that Wisdom is an actual breathing living Goddess, we have to make Love a God-dess! and makes all words not only personifications of God, but also literal actual living breathing Gods and Goddesses!
But then, since Love or the Wisdom of Love is really the Wisdom of God, then Love and the Wisdom or the Chokmah or the Sophia of Love are really the same being.
And then because God invented words and so is the Father of Words like Einstein is the father of modern science, then every word is a son of God and every son of God is a word!
And every child of God being a word makes God The Word Dad or Mr. Word!
And that wd tie that in with all words personifying God and make all humans who have names which are words Gods! Which wd tie all that in with John 10:34-35 and Psalms 82:6 and Genesis 1:26.
And so it is no wonder that the Son of God is the Word or that the Word is the Son of God-- -- which then makes God THE Dad Word --which is what John 1:1 says!
And so Proverbs 8 and John 1:1 are really talking about the same word or being.
And so, also because God is Love, 1 John 4:8, and Love is a word, and God is a word, The Word, then it is clear that Love is the word God is, and that Love is God, the God that God worhips!
So no wonder then that God also tells us that the supreme Law is the Law of Love: Matthew 22:36-40.
Ad infinitum!
| Chaoticjacket wrote: |
I recently read The Sophia Teachings: The emergence of the divine sophia in our time by Robert Powell, It said King Solomon actually prayed to the goddess Sophia to bless him with wisdom. |
Which cd be reconcilably interpreted as Solo praying to God as Love or to God as the SOPHIA OF LOVE or as the HOPE of Love or as the ROCK of Love or as the FORTRESS OF LOVE, or as THE LIGHT OF LOVE, or as the Etc of Love just as Moses prayed to God as IAMWHATIAM or as IAMWHOIAM.
| Chaoticjacket wrote: |
So from this can I accurately conclude there is more than one god in Christianity/Jewish beliefs. |
Or also accurately conclude that there is one God with an Infinity of Names or Titles!
There is no difference or there is a difference but with no distinction between a monotheist God with endless names AND a polytheism of endless Gods with one surname, named Love!
| Chaoticjacket wrote: |
We all know King James removed some books from the bible could these have divulged deeper into this. |
But we also know that God was deciding what was going in and what was staying out from behind the scenes: so it IS all good in the Chokmah/Sophia/Wisdom of Love for who and what's in and who and what's out: since, in this case, there IS obviously more out than in!
BUT from what Love is in the Bible, we can dig deeper than any deep and depth, and go higher than any high and height, and go wider than any wide and width, and go longer than any long and length! Ephesians 3:15-18. Proverbs 25:1-3. |
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OTavern
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
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| Post: #8 Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Belinda wrote: |
As for the Holy Trinity, this was a much later invention than any conception of God in the Old Testament. The Holy Trinity of Father , Son and Holy Spirit is not mentioned even in the New Testament. It was not finalised until the Council of Nicea, hundreds of years after Jesus died. |
Not true.
Among many Old Testament references:
"-And now the Lord Yahweh, with his Spirit, sends me" (Is 48:16)
"Here is my servant whom I uphold, my chosen... I have endowed him with my Spirit..." (Is 42:1)
"The Sprit of the Lord Yahweh has been given me, for Yahweh has anointed me..." (Is 61:1)
"I shall put my Spirit in you, and make you keep my laws and sincerely respect my observances... " (Ez 36:27)
"I will pour out my Spirit on all mankind... Even on the slaves, men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. (Joel 3:1-5)
"I have filled him with the Spirit of God and endowed him with skill and perception and knowledge..." (Ex 31:3)
"Raising his eyes Balaam saw Israel, encamped by tribes; the Spirit of God came on him..." (Num 24:2)
"The Spirit of God came upon Saul mightily when he heard these words..." (1 Sam 11:6)
As well as many others from the New Testament:
Mary "...found to be with child through the Holy Spirit." (Matt 1:19)
"... she has conceived what is in her by the Holy Spirit." (Matt 1:21)
"Jesus was baptized...and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove..." (Matt 3:16)
"Then Jesus, led by the Spirit out into the wilderness... (Matt 4:1)
"But if it through the Spirit of God that I cast out devils..." (Matt 12:28)
"...let anyone speak against the Holy Spirit..." (Matt 12:32)
"How is it that David, moved by the Spirit, calls him Lord..." (Matt 22:43)
"Jesus came up and spoke to them. He said "...baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,... (Matt 28:19-20)
"I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. (Mark 1:8)
There are dozens more references to the "Holy Spirit" or "Spirit" in Mark and Luke and twice that many in John.
"...what is born of flesh is flesh, what is born of Spirit is spirit..." (John 3:6)
"...God gives him the Spirit without reserve..." (John 3:34)
"It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh has nothing to offer..." (John 6:63)
"I shall ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you forever, the Spirit of Truth whom the world can never receive..." (John 14:16)
"...the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything..." (John 14:26)
"When the Advocate comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who issues from the Father, he will be my witness..." (John 15:26)
"...when the Spirit of Truth comes, he will lead you to the complete truth..." (John 16:13)
"Receive the Holy Spirit. For those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven... (John 20:22)
There are additionally many references to the Father and Son of God throughout the New Testament, in Acts, and the letters of Paul, John, Peter and James.
"...he gave his instructions to the Apostles he had chosen through the Holy Spirit..." (Acts 1:2)
"Didn't you realize that you were God's temple and that the Spirit of God was living among you?" (1 Cor 3:16)
"... those who preached to you the Good News through the Holy Spirit sent to you from heaven..." (1 Peter 1:12)
"...the Spirit as another witness - since the Spirit is the truth - so that there are three witnesses..." (1 John 5:6)
Jesus saw himself as God. That is certain.
"I tell you most solemnly, before Abraham ever was, I Am." (John 8:58)
Further, if the Holy Spirit is the "Spirit of Wisdom" from the Old Testament, and from the similarity of roles, i.e., Wisdom is "a friend to man," "instructor," "Spirit of Truth" (OT) and the "Advocate" "teacher" and "Spirit of Truth" (NT) then the Trinity appears throughout both, especially in the Wisdom literature which seems primarily about the Holy Spirit of Wisdom. |
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Belinda
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| Post: #9 Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:33 am Post subject: |
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One week ago I asked a Christian friend of mine what the Holy Spirit is, explaining that I had never understood what it was supposed to be. My friend explained that the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ among us. Also the Holy Spirit will comfort and aid any person who takes Jesus to be his or her personal saviour.
Although I find my friend's explanation does not tempt me for reasons I dont need to go into now, it is easier to understand than the quotations from the Bible provided by OTavern.
When the Bible is quoted to me I have three puzzles going on in my mind. One is 'Are the words beautiful?' This is comparatively easy, as often the words are beautiful.Indeed , sometimes the words make sense for me.
Another puzzle is 'What did the writer intend by this? Is the writer engaging in some arcane metaphor that I cannot understand?'
The other puzzle is 'Of what use is this interpretion of certain sayings in the Bible? Are they conducive to world peace, or to combating climate change, or nuclear weapons proliferation, or to someone's personal happiness?'
| Quote: |
Jesus saw himself as God. That is certain.
"I tell you most solemnly, before Abraham ever was, I Am." (John 8:5 |
This is a statement of hard determinism that includes the notion of the Cosmic Christ.
I have been taught that the Gospel of John is the least historical of the four Gospels. There were other reasons than recording history for the writing of boooks in the Bible. This is especially the case with the Gospels which are for devotional purposes not historical recording although some historical information , not very much, can be sifted from the Gospels by clever scholars.
I wonder if OTavern believes that God as most people conceive Him today, as a God of love, arose fully formed as God of love during the earliest times of the tribes of Judah and Israel. Would you please to answer this OTavern?
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lifegazer
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| Post: #10 Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:42 am Post subject: |
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Sophia is a metaphor for 'reason'.
All you need for a biblical argument, is a biblical literalist. |
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ape
Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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| Post: #11 Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| OTavern wrote: |
Among many Old Testament references:
"-And now the Lord Yahweh, with his Spirit, sends me" (Is 48:16)
"Here is my servant whom I uphold, my chosen... I have endowed him with my Spirit..." (Is 42:1)
"The Sprit of the Lord Yahweh has been given me, for Yahweh has anointed me..." (Is 61:1)
"I shall put my Spirit in you, and make you keep my laws and sincerely respect my observances... " (Ez 36:27)
As well as many others from the New Testament:
Mary "...found to be with child through the Holy Spirit." (Matt 1:19)
"... she has conceived what is in her by the Holy Spirit." (Matt 1:21)
"Jesus was baptized...and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove..." (Matt 3:16)
"Then Jesus, led by the Spirit out into the wilderness... (Matt 4:1)
"But if it through the Spirit of God that I cast out devils..." (Matt 12:2
"...let anyone speak against the Holy Spirit..." (Matt 12:32)
"How is it that David, moved by the Spirit, calls him Lord..." (Matt 22:43)
There are dozens more references to the "Holy Spirit" or "Spirit" in Mark and Luke and twice that many in John.
Jesus saw himself as God. That is certain.
"I tell you most solemnly, before Abraham ever was, I Am." (John 8:5
Further, if the Holy Spirit is the "Spirit of Wisdom" from the Old Testament, and from the similarity of roles, i.e., Wisdom is "a friend to man," "instructor," "Spirit of Truth" (OT) and the "Advocate" "teacher" and "Spirit of Truth" (NT) then the Trinity appears throughout both, especially in the Wisdom literature which seems primarily about the Holy Spirit of Wisdom. |
Xlnt, OT!
Not to mention Psalms 51:
10. Create in me *a clean heart,* O God; and renew *a right spirit* within me.
11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not *thy holy spirit from me.*
12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with *thy free spirit.*
13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17The sacrifices of God are *a broken spirit*: *a broken and a contrite heart,* O God, thou wilt not despise.
And that John 8:58 ties with the fact any son of a father has the name of his dad and so IS his dad's name and so can correctly say when asked 'Are you God or Tavern or Ape?', 'Yes, I am God or Tavern or Ape!!
Just like we answered 'Present' in school when the teacher asked for: 'OTavern?' or 'Ape,' or 'God,' and we answered 'present' because we were OTavern or Ape, and Jesus answered 'Present' because he was God!
I once said this to a guy named Ware who was denying that JC was also God:
Are you aware, Mr.Ware, that as the son of your dad Mr. Ware, you are a Ware or Ware? 
Not to mention John 14:6: when you see Me you see the my father! |
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