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lifegazer
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Post: #1  Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: History forged by the common people |
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We look back upon our history with our focus upon the significant individuals that stand out from the rest. People such as Alexander the Great; Julius Caesar; Jesus Christ; Constantine; Charlemagne; Mohammad; Henry VIII; Napoleon Bonaparte; Adolf Hitler; Elvis Presley; etc., have all been acclaimed as being sledge-hammers in history (positive or negative is not the issue).
My point is that it is not these individuals that effectively write history, but the mass of individuals that give credance to their authority. That is, Adolph Hitler, for example, became important because of the social climate he found himself within, rather than because he was actually important. The same can be said of all the figures I listed, with the possible exceptions of JC and Mohammad, who were actually creating new attitudes. That is, imo, only special philosophers and significant religious instigators escape my condemnation, for only they can be considered radical and creators of actual mindsets - as opposed to being products of pre-existing mindsets. (I think that some artists could possibly be embraced within this fold).
This realisation has two major implications:
1) History is forged by the mindset of purely-radical individuals.
2) Or else, history is forged by the masses. Characters such as Hitler are just the puppets through which any particular history was meant to be forged. That is, unless the masses give power to something, that thing has no power.
The bottom-line of this thread, according to myself, is that historians have screwed-up by writing our history as though determined by a succession of important individuals; when, in fact, those individuals themselves were determined (germinated) by the mindset of the common people.
... Alexander the Great, was in fact Alexander the Puppet, 'being great', because of the general mindset that forged his existence. That is, the common people write history, not individuals.
Discussion welcome. |
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Belinda
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| Post: #2 Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:23 am Post subject: Re: History forged by the common people |
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| lifegazer wrote: |
We look back upon our history with our focus upon the significant individuals that stand out from the rest. People such as Alexander the Great; Julius Caesar; Jesus Christ; Constantine; Charlemagne; Mohammad; Henry VIII; Napoleon Bonaparte; Adolf Hitler; Elvis Presley; etc., have all been acclaimed as being sledge-hammers in history (positive or negative is not the issue).
My point is that it is not these individuals that effectively write history, but the mass of individuals that give credance to their authority. That is, Adolph Hitler, for example, became important because of the social climate he found himself within, rather than because he was actually important. The same can be said of all the figures I listed, with the possible exceptions of JC and Mohammad, who were actually creating new attitudes. That is, imo, only special philosophers and significant religious instigators escape my condemnation, for only they can be considered radical and creators of actual mindsets - as opposed to being products of pre-existing mindsets. (I think that some artists could possibly be embraced within this fold).
This realisation has two major implications:
1) History is forged by the mindset of purely-radical individuals.
2) Or else, history is forged by the masses. Characters such as Hitler are just the puppets through which any particular history was meant to be forged. That is, unless the masses give power to something, that thing has no power.
The bottom-line of this thread, according to myself, is that historians have screwed-up by writing our history as though determined by a succession of important individuals; when, in fact, those individuals themselves were determined (germinated) by the mindset of the common people.
... Alexander the Great, was in fact Alexander the Puppet, 'being great', because of the general mindset that forged his existence. That is, the common people write history, not individuals.
Discussion welcome. |
But Hitler created a new attitude too. So did Stalin. The fact that we don't like either of them or the attitudes they created is not material to the fact
Socrates, Confucius, Buddha,Jeremiah all created a new attitude that has lasted a very long time, much longer than Nazism or Stalinism. I hope that this tells us something.No room for complacency though.
I take your main point that man's past is shaped by circumstances and not by absolute origination by special individuals. However, it is remarkable to say the least that the persons I list above all made such world changing moral discoveries in diverse societies and locations around the year 500BC. Jesus is famous for his moral example too, although his fame is largely due to St Paul.
| Quote: |
| The bottom-line of this thread, according to myself, is that historians have screwed-up by writing our history as though determined by a succession of important individuals; when, in fact, those individuals themselves were determined (germinated) by the mindset of the common people. |
Schools now teach history in the way that you recommend.It is sometimes called 'social history'. This social history is often combined with geography because the very climate and terrain exert a large influence upon how a people develop, think of the native Americans, or the European settlers who opened up the American West.
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wanabe
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| Post: #3 Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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The problem is that you cant write a textbook about everyone in the world; so you talk about the "bandwagons" that many jumped on, and their drivers instead.
History is in fact forged by EVERY THING.
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lifegazer
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| Post: #4 Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| wanabe wrote: |
The problem is that you cant write a textbook about everyone in the world; so you talk about the "bandwagons" that many jumped on, and their drivers instead.
History is in fact forged by EVERY THING. |
I'm not sure that you realise this, but you've just actually endorsed the point of my opening post. That is, history is rarely about individuals, but essentially about general-mindsets that express themselves through puppets.
For example, Belinda complained that Hitler & Stalin "created a new attitude". But Hitler was just a product of the calamities that happened to Germany in the earlier part of the 20th century. He only came to power because there were enough Germans that wanted him to - there were enough Germans who wanted to redress the consequences of November, 1918. Without that mindset in place, Hitler might have endured the same sort of ridicule as, for example, that recently targeted at BNP leader Nick Griffin (UK).
At the end of the day, the power of an individual is bequeathed by the public. And ultimately, individuals like Hitler are bound to happen, because the force of that public is too strong for it not to happen.
Should we blame a little puppet like Hitler for the death of millions of people? Of course not. His state of mind was forged by a previous history and a present culture. Moreover, his rise to power was borne of wings forged by the German public at that time.
Hitler was not a forger of history. He was forged into history. An inevitable puppet of the time. Just like almost EVERY individual within the history books, except those who made their mark in history without being carried there by the public.
There is very little originality expressed through humanity. Very little indeed. And this is why I say that history is flawed - since historians concentrate on writing history as though it were forged by individuals.
The actual individuals that created history, are those that created the notion of God - and the subsequent notions of what God is (religions); or those that created the notion of group identity (nations/states etc.); or those that brought 'art' into the human psyche.
As individuals, we should not invest too much of our hopes in individuals. And we should actually recognise that whenever we do such a thing, we are choosing a microphone for our own viewpoint. Therefore, we should not champion, or condemn, any individual - we should only champion or condemn the viewpoints that live through them.
Hitler wasn't evil. What gave rise to Hitler, was evil. Therein, is my point-of-view.
What I'm saying here won't be popular, because most individuals aspire to be popular, and what I am saying has profound implications for 'the individual'. Since what I'm saying reduces the potential for individual popularity, it's hardly surprising that history has been written in such a way as to appeal to the individual's insecurities and needs.
But hey, this is a philosophy forum, and I only care about unveiling that which is true, regardless of the repercussions to my own obvious popularity.  |
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wanabe
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| Post: #5 Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:44 am Post subject: |
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I gave you a reason things are done the way they are. It's not that what your saying isn't true(that was not my point) I've heard many professors say similar things, in addition to history channel speakers.
It's one of those flaws were going to have to deal with because you can't write about every one. There are books that go in detail about the sociology behind Hitlers rise however.
"Hitler wasn't evil. What gave rise to Hitler, was evil. Therein, is my point-of-view."
Taking that view is no less problematic(It's the opposite problem). You can't ignore the individual all together.
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Anything is possible; nothing is as it seems.Transcend feeble language by communicating through Direct Perception.I am attempting to transcend 'right and wrong', please help me."What you don't understand you can make mean anything."-Chuck Palahniuk |
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Belinda
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| Post: #6 Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The problem is that you cant write a textbook about everyone in the world; so you talk about the "bandwagons" that many jumped on, and their drivers instead. |
That is very interesting because I have one history book which is based on the testimonies of ordinary peasants to an inquisitor. These are individuals' verbatim accounts of everyday life in a French village hundreds of years ago.It's a legal document so it is true.You almost get to know the people. I think the book is unusual as history books go, and I have never read another like it. Generally I think that what Wanabe says is true
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lifegazer
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| Post: #7 Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Belinda wrote: |
| I have one history book which is based on the testimonies of ordinary peasants to an inquisitor. These are individuals' verbatim accounts of everyday life in a French village hundreds of years ago.It's a legal document so it is true.You almost get to know the people. I think the book is unusual as history books go, and I have never read another like it. |
Do you remember the name of this book? It sounds very interesting.
| wanabe wrote: |
It's one of those flaws were going to have to deal with because you can't write about every one.
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I know you can't write about everyone, but accurate history is rarely about individuals anyway - which is the point I've been trying to make.
Imo, accurate history needs to focus on the core causes of events, which are not individuals such as Hitler, but the circumstances which brought him to power.
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There are books that go in detail about the sociology behind Hitlers rise however.
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I suppose so, but at base level, we are taught that Hitler caused this and was responsible for that, etc..
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"Hitler wasn't evil. What gave rise to Hitler, was evil. Therein, is my point-of-view."
Taking that view is no less problematic(It's the opposite problem). You can't ignore the individual all together. |
Of course not. But that they are held as totally culpable (or even praiseworthy), is simply not justifiable and I think that we are often guilty - not just as historians - of utter short-sightedness in just condemning/praising individuals for their actions.
What I'm saying could be extended to attack the justice systems of most states/nations, in that societies tend to seek redress from criminals alone, doing very little if anything to amend the causes of criminal mindsets in general. It's a simple fact that crime can be reduced, not just by putting more police on the streets, but by making social improvements. Consequently, the governments of those countries with high crime rates are in some sense guilty for much of their own crime. Many criminals are just end-products of adverse and desperate cultural environments. Those in power that condemn the criminals but do nothing to redress the underlying causes of the criminal mindset, are imo also commiting a criminal offence. |
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wanabe
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| Post: #8 Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Accurate history would be about everyone. Historians focus on Hitler because while people did share some of his ideals(The snow ball was rolling) he was an all powerful dictator who orchestrated the mass-killings of ethnic groups to serve his own desires, while at the same time making his country rich with the plunders of war(He just made sure it ran into the 'right' house, which is a big deal he is just one man after all).
History is always about everything, including all individuals. History does not have a core focus.
so agreed
| Quote: |
| accurate history is rarely about individuals anyway - which is the point I've been trying to make. |
but to say its about just events would be inaccurate which is what you later assert, but have taken back.
Hitler was responsible for a lot of bad things, he was a dictator! There are many books that talk about the social climate during his rise.
Anything can make a person flip out and become a criminal. A 'perfect' society people would flip out and do bad things just for fun.
If historians are shortsighted, you are farsighted(neither is the case, all I'm trying to say is that your worries are not well founded). It takes a lot more to change a social situation than one person, and some times society must be changed one person at a time; in essence that's the 'only' way. Many criminals would like the idea of not being responsible for their own independent actions. That's why people in prison can always say "I shouldn't be here, I'm innocent"
If you are still worried read more history and you will see that things are not how you have perceived them.
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Anything is possible; nothing is as it seems.Transcend feeble language by communicating through Direct Perception.I am attempting to transcend 'right and wrong', please help me."What you don't understand you can make mean anything."-Chuck Palahniuk |
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lifegazer
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| Post: #9 Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| wanabe wrote: |
Many criminals would like the idea of not being responsible for their own independent actions. That's why people in prison can always say "I shouldn't be here, I'm innocent"
If you are still worried read more history and you will see that things are not how you have perceived them. |
To be clear, I'm not saying that people shouldn't be held accountable for reprehensible actions. I'm just saying that they shouldn't be held solely accountable, which is the norm.
Criminals have to be taken off the street just to protect the rest of society from further abuse. My point is that society plays its part in producing crime, but this is rarely acknowledged and little is done to amend the situation.
By the same principles of reasoning, individuals should never be the sole focus of historians. |
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wanabe
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| Post: #10 Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I'm just saying that they shouldn't be held solely accountable, which is the norm |
Do you want to go to jail for contributing to the problem? Point being, that besides a reminder there is noting that is practically appropriate to amend the situation.
I think that it is recognized that society plays a role when ever something catastrophic happens. The shooting at columbine; Movies, video games, bad parents; were all blamed, but those things did not force these kids to go on a shooting rampage. More recently at fort hood, people blame Islam, and all kinds of people for not seeing 'signs', but Major Hasan still acted on his own. Something more trivial; "balloon boy", blame the media for irresponsible parenting? No, they acted on their own.
As whitetrsolider said, "Accountability is the #1 virtue". Though I don't agree it's the first, it's certainly up there.
Individuals are not the sole focus of historians! Read some wiki or something, and don't throw a bunch of articles about people from wiki at me, you can read about the events as well as the people there.
What do you recommend we do to amend the situation?
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Anything is possible; nothing is as it seems.Transcend feeble language by communicating through Direct Perception.I am attempting to transcend 'right and wrong', please help me."What you don't understand you can make mean anything."-Chuck Palahniuk |
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Belinda
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| Post: #11 Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:12 am Post subject: |
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Lifegazer, the history book that I mentioned is the testimonies to Bishop Fournier, an inquisitor who was a meticulous recorder. The testimonies are all by obscure peasants and give an insight into their lives and even their personalities. This seems almost unbelievable after the hundreds of years since the Inquisition, but the book is a thoroughly authentic history that quotes for the most part word by word the records of Bishop Fournier, who must have been a very talented inquisitor who was able to extract testimonies without any of the physical torture that the Inquisition is notorious for.
The book is called Montaillou, and is a best seller, in paperback, translated into English of course.
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lifegazer
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| Post: #12 Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:42 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Belinda. I've just purchased a used copy on Ebay for £3.70, including postage, which was significantly cheaper than I could find it anywhere else.
As I said, "the common people" are really what history is all about. Thanks again. |
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Belinda
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| Post: #13 Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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Lifegazer,The amazing thing about this book is it's serious history that reads almost like a novel. I think Bishop Fournier became pope later on and took his records to the Vatican library.Please let me know if you like it. Amazon second hand book sellers are very good value aren't they, I've had quite a few from them.
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kk23wong
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| Post: #14 Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:33 am Post subject: Re: History forged by the common people |
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| lifegazer wrote: |
We look back upon our history with our focus upon the significant individuals that stand out from the rest. People such as Alexander the Great; Julius Caesar; Jesus Christ; Constantine; Charlemagne; Mohammad; Henry VIII; Napoleon Bonaparte; Adolf Hitler; Elvis Presley; etc., have all been acclaimed as being sledge-hammers in history (positive or negative is not the issue).
My point is that it is not these individuals that effectively write history, but the mass of individuals that give credance to their authority. That is, Adolph Hitler, for example, became important because of the social climate he found himself within, rather than because he was actually important. The same can be said of all the figures I listed, with the possible exceptions of JC and Mohammad, who were actually creating new attitudes. That is, imo, only special philosophers and significant religious instigators escape my condemnation, for only they can be considered radical and creators of actual mindsets - as opposed to being products of pre-existing mindsets. (I think that some artists could possibly be embraced within this fold).
This realisation has two major implications:
1) History is forged by the mindset of purely-radical individuals.
2) Or else, history is forged by the masses. Characters such as Hitler are just the puppets through which any particular history was meant to be forged. That is, unless the masses give power to something, that thing has no power.
The bottom-line of this thread, according to myself, is that historians have screwed-up by writing our history as though determined by a succession of important individuals; when, in fact, those individuals themselves were determined (germinated) by the mindset of the common people.
... Alexander the Great, was in fact Alexander the Puppet, 'being great', because of the general mindset that forged his existence. That is, the common people write history, not individuals.
Discussion welcome. |
History has been forged by masses. An indivisibility with the God
People have written them down.
People are reading others in TIME.
Conflicts in heart. Wars in history.
Growth of the Earth - Evolution
Growth of the Mankind - Civilizations
Growth of the Universe - Cell Divisions
A-live gives birth to others.
A-life, living inside and out.
A-live has a start. There must be an end.
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