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If there is a God, why is there evil?

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JPhillips



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Post: #241   PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
There is evil because there is ignorance. God gave us free will to choose between good and evil . We choose evil over good when we think it will make us feel good at the moment or best serves our own selfish desires and purposes. We commit evil and are willing to risk the consequences based upon how good it makes us feel in the moment. Usually we think it will more than likely go unpunished because we do not expect to get caught. Sometimes people get so caught up in their own bad behavior that they allow it to spiral out of control. The more a person behaves a certain way, the more it becomes an established pattern or a bad habit which becomes extremely difficult to break. Additionally, we become desensitized and feel less guilt after numerous repetitions. When we knowingly choose to do something we know is wrong, either we are not concerned as to how our actions affect others, or we feel the benefits outweigh the costs such as the feeling s of the impending guilt that may come later.

On a smaller scale of committing evil, you have men cheating on their wives or people cheating other people out of money in a business transaction. On a larger scale, you have sadistic dictators who enjoy hurting the people they should be protecting. It is much easier to understand the former than it is to understand the latter, since sadism does not appeal to most of us. A desire for power and control over others undoubtedly plays a major role. Also, it has been shown that many people who hate others and want to hurt others also hate themselves. This could become a vicious cycle, as the more they hurt others, the more they hate themselves. Think of how many times you’ve heard of abused children who grow up and abuse the people they love. Their sense of worth was surely greatly diminished as children. They tend to blame themselves. They feel unworthy of love rather than to cast blame on the parent who abused them. Feelings we have as a child can be most difficult to overcome as we get older.

If you truly understand the concept of free will, you know that God cannot choose to allow the small sins and act against the large sins, in a way which would violate the laws of nature which He created. God acts through his faithful flock of people who fight against evil and are willing to die to do so. In our day to day existence we think God has deserted us. When we stop and realize how little time we are on earth compared to how long we will live after we die, it becomes more meaningful as to why God allows us to hurt each other in order to learn to love each other. We are all connected so that evil committed against one is committed against all. Until we all learn this lesson, we will remain ignorant and we will continue to hurt each other. Once we realize the principle of Karma, or the Golden Rule, or the meaning of the Christian teaching of an eye for an eye, we will understand that in order to be free from pain we must stop causing pain.

I believe we are still in the early learning stages of our spiritual development. If you compare where the world is today, as a whole, as to where it was in the Dark Ages, you might agree. In the Dark Ages, crowd of people sometimes entertained themselves by viewing prisoners as they were being publicly tortured and executed by order of the king. Surely the world as a whole, and especially the more advanced nations, has made progress.

When each and every one of us is capable and strives to live in accordance with the teachings and examples set by the Buddha, or Jesus Christ, or Gandhi, then we will see the disappearance of evil in the world.
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Meleagar



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Post: #242   PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:53 am    Post subject: Re: If there is a God, why is there evil? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
Floyd wrote:
If there is a God, why is there evil? Why do bad things happen to good people? Why is there so much needless suffering in the world, from natural disasters and such? Why would a loving God do this?


The short answers are: God may not be loving in the same sense that you use the word; or, what is going on in the world is not what you think is going on.

You might be asking a question like, why does a movie director allow such evil to exist in their movies? Only, there is no **actual** evil going on in the movie, because it is all a staged presentation that all the actors have agreed to participate in, and some of the actors may not even be real - they might just be computer generated characters.

The existence of a god of some sort is a necessary fundamental aspect of existence. Without a god of some sort, existence and debate thereof collapses into incoherency. I suggest that it isn't that reality contradicts the likelihood of the existence of God, but rather just your particular concept of God.

A lot of people feel betrayed by their belief in the god they grew up believing in when they see how the world is; how can a kind, loving, benevolent God allow such things to exist? Then we get angry at having been fooled, and then we throw the baby out with the bath water, not realizing that we actually require a god of some sort for existence to be coherent and meaningful.

Bad things appear to happen in the world, but I suggest that what you think is going on, is not really what is going on.

Also, unless there is a God, there cannot be evil. If there is no evil, then your question is incoherent. The existence of evil doesn't contradict the idea that god exists; it proves that God must exist.
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Philosophallic Soda



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Post: #243   PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
If everything was nice and peaceful, life would be boring.

But thanks the Lord Almighty, life is all about having enemies and spending your time thinking about how to screw them up.
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SpiralsHappen



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Post: #244   PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:34 am    Post subject: If there is a God, why is there evil? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
Evil is only a byproduct of mans various degrees of sickness. Certainly what wild animals and insects do to each other is never looked upon as evil. So if man with his freewill were not on the planet then there would be no evil even among all the other creatures, including dinosaurs.

Insead of calling it sin, consider the macrobiotic perspective and call it what it really is "sickness". Man with his freewill and greedy five senses will almost always find trouble. There is a order to the universe and from this order comes balance. We can notice balance when we realize something like our solar system and how its planets do not crash into each other. This would be chaos if the planets were not healthy and with out order. Man is no different. If he lives out of order then he becomes unhealthy and with chaos in his life. Live out of balance and live with less health and order.
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JPhillips



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Post: #245   PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:29 am    Post subject: Why is there evil Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
SpiralsHappen

You make a valid point. Out of all God's creatures, man is the one who is concerned about what life will bring and what death will bring. Man's life is so complicated. He don't know what we want and usually when he thinks he wants something and gets it, he realizes it really wasn't what he wanted. In short, he drives himself crazy then does crazy things.

People blame God for evil, then get to the point they refuse to believe God exists because a loving God would not allow evil to happen. Funny, we are the ones who are responsible for evil and yet God still believes in us.
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Belinda
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Post: #246   PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
If there is a God why is there evil? may be two separate questions.

There is moral evil such as bearing false witness or stealing.There is natural evil such as earthquakes, epidemics and wildfires.
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OTavern



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Post: #247   PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:29 pm    Post subject: Re: If there is a God, why is there evil? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
Meleagar wrote:
Floyd wrote:
If there is a God, why is there evil? Why do bad things happen to good people? Why is there so much needless suffering in the world, from natural disasters and such? Why would a loving God do this?


The short answers are: God may not be loving in the same sense that you use the word; or, what is going on in the world is not what you think is going on.

You might be asking a question like, why does a movie director allow such evil to exist in their movies? Only, there is no **actual** evil going on in the movie, because it is all a staged presentation that all the actors have agreed to participate in, and some of the actors may not even be real - they might just be computer generated characters.

The existence of a god of some sort is a necessary fundamental aspect of existence. Without a god of some sort, existence and debate thereof collapses into incoherency. I suggest that it isn't that reality contradicts the likelihood of the existence of God, but rather just your particular concept of God.

A lot of people feel betrayed by their belief in the god they grew up believing in when they see how the world is; how can a kind, loving, benevolent God allow such things to exist? Then we get angry at having been fooled, and then we throw the baby out with the bath water, not realizing that we actually require a god of some sort for existence to be coherent and meaningful.

Bad things appear to happen in the world, but I suggest that what you think is going on, is not really what is going on.

Also, unless there is a God, there cannot be evil. If there is no evil, then your question is incoherent. The existence of evil doesn't contradict the idea that god exists; it proves that God must exist.


This is all very profound, and I suspect the very reason some do not believe in "a" God is that they are seeing the very idea of God from within a skewed perspective.

Example:

If God were all-powerful and all-knowing then God wouldn't allow or carry out event X.
God does or allows event X.
Therefore God cannot be all-powerful and all-knowing.

The presumption here is in the first premise, that somehow human beings, admittedly having limited knowledge and power would somehow intuitively know what an all-powerful or all-knowing being would do. The argument can only be valid if the first premise is proven true, but only an all-powerful and all-knowing being could know what an all-knowing and all-powerful being would allow or carry out. That is knowledge any other being with limited knowledge and power could not easily access, without a great deal of presumption.
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Meleagar



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Post: #248   PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:55 am    Post subject: Re: If there is a God, why is there evil? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
OTavern wrote:

The presumption here is in the first premise, that somehow human beings, admittedly having limited knowledge and power would somehow intuitively know what an all-powerful or all-knowing being would do. The argument can only be valid if the first premise is proven true, but only an all-powerful and all-knowing being could know what an all-knowing and all-powerful being would allow or carry out. That is knowledge any other being with limited knowledge and power could not easily access, without a great deal of presumption.


This is why axiomatic "first things" or necessary fundamental principles must be accepted on faith; while they cannot be proven, they are necessary for rational debate and a coherent belief system/worldview.

Most of the arguments against god that I've encountered - such as the argument from evil - are mostly rhetorical, emotional appeals, but they are very effective; I convinced myself to be an atheist for many years due to a good argument from evil.

Eventually, however, I realized the argument was self-refuting; without an objective or transcendent moral standard, there is no such thing as meaningful evil, which renders the argument incoherent to begin with. The only reason there can be a meaningful theological argument from evil is if god exists; making the argument is a de facto admission that one accepts the existence of a transcendent moral standard, or else there would be no evil to argue from against the existence of a god.

Also, the argument is only about a particular kind of god, so it is apparent that by making such an argument one is focused on a particular god - one that lets bad things happen; usually, one only makes this argument because they have felt betrayed or angry at the idea of a god that created or allows evil, and feel it is foolish or stupid when others believe in what they consider to be a moral monster of a god.

When I was under the influence of such an argument, it really was just an intellectual justification for allowing myself to not believe in god and to feel superior to others who did. I find that a lot of anti-relgion, anti-"superstition", anti-God argument seems to be rooted in the deisire to feel intellectually superior to others.
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Wiggety



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Post: #249   PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: If there is a God, why is there evil? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
[quote="MyshiningOne"]
Floyd wrote:

Happiness cannot exist without sadness, just like a
light in a hallway or closet cannot exist without
the darkness to greet it.


Happiness can exist without sadness. You wouldn't notice that it existed because there would be no opposite to it, but nonetheless it would still exist. This can also be said about good and evil. Good can exist without evil in the same manner.
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Santini



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Post: #250   PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
True, Wiggety, and nicely put.

Also, to say as some have said in this thread, that in essence "The ways of our Lord are mysterious" is to engage in one of the world's biggest cop-outs. Even fundamentalist believers, in some dark, barely explored crease in their brains, probably realize that.

All such an "answer" really means is that there is no known reasonable answer that explains a benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient God's inaction in such a horrific situation.

If one seriously examines this problem, one quickly surmises that the belief in an omnipotent, omniscient, and always benevolent god who exists in a world in which natural evil occurs must be relinquished

. . . or that one must declare oneself to be a lunatic on this matter who is not open to reasonable persuasion.
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OTavern



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Post: #251   PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
Santini wrote:
True, Wiggety, and nicely put.

Also, to say as some have said in this thread, that in essence "The ways of our Lord are mysterious" is to engage in one of the world's biggest cop-outs. Even fundamentalist believers, in some dark, barely explored crease in their brains, probably realize that.

All such an "answer" really means is that there is no known reasonable answer that explains a benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient God's inaction in such a horrific situation.

If one seriously examines this problem, one quickly surmises that the belief in an omnipotent, omniscient, and always benevolent god who exists in a world in which natural evil occurs must be relinquished

. . . or that one must declare oneself to be a lunatic on this matter who is not open to reasonable persuasion.


I doubt it. It merely means that a person recognizes the limitations of their own understanding. If you can't do that then you must be holding the (mistaken) belief that your capacity to understand exceeds all possible knowledge that is "unknown" at the moment. Do you really believe that your intelligence is capable of understanding all that can be known? How would you know that? You couldn't. In which case, there must be the "mysterious" aspects of knowable reality that you cannot at this moment actually know.

As to your point that "...there is no known reasonable answer that explains a benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient God's inaction in such a horrific situation...," even leaving God out of the picture and just considering say the evil intentions of someone like Hitler, it is quite reasonable to say that there is no reasonable answer to why someone like Hitler carried out the atrocities he and his henchmen did. This is not a copout because evil is quite mysterious "on its own" - can you explain why it exists or why human beings would carry out the things they do at times? To merely say their physiology went awry is just as much a copout as the theist claim, because it doesn't explain why bad physiology would lead to that kind of behaviour necessarily.

The mere existence of that kind of evil is mysterious whether or not God is in the picture. God's existence may add a new dimension to consider, but it surely does not make evil more or less mysterious.
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Belinda
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Post: #252   PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
Wiggety wrote
Quote:
Happiness can exist without sadness. You wouldn't notice that it existed because there would be no opposite to it, but nonetheless it would still exist. This can also be said about good and evil. Good can exist without evil in the same manner.


This may be happiness and it may be goodness, but it's not the sort of happiness and goodness that I prefer. I prefer conscious happiness and goodness that require sadness and evil for me to understand that I am happy or sad. Happiness and goodness can be got by immersing the subject in an ambience where there is no sadness nor evil. This is in fact done when a breed of pathogenic organisms is reared in ideal conditions in a lab. They want for nothing. Everything is provided to make their little lives easy and pleasant. The result after some generations is a breed of weakened organisms.Good for vaccinating other animals but no use to their own species.

Among human beings take a man who works hard and intelligently to build up a prosperous business from scratch and then provides his son with every possible comfort and luxury and freedom from stresses. The son turns out to be stupid and perhaps immoral because he has not had the opportunity to learn from risk taking and subsequent misfortunes.The son will eventually be unhappy, probably shorter lived and will not have learned how to live in the real world where people have to know both how to cooperate and how to be assertive.
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whitetrshsoldier
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Post: #253   PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
OTavern wrote:
I am not writing this to start another argument. You can take this or leave it, but I believe this point needs to be made

You asked if I agree that people have a "right" to know truth. I don't agree that we have a "right" to know complete truth for a very simple reason.

Good trumps truth. Good matters more than truth and truth should be subject to good. Some truth in the hands of "evil" beings can be very dangerous.

If I know the complete truth of what is inside you - the innermost "workings of your soul" if I am not a completely good being I can do a great deal of harm to you, if I so will. God is Goodness and Truth. He is omnibenevolent and omniscient. He would know fully who can be trusted with some truths and who cannot be trusted. Beings who are not wholly good ought not to be trusted with a great deal of critical truth about others that they could use to do harm. In some ways, the Garden of Eden was a kind of "trust" challenge to see how far humans could be trusted with critical knowledge and perhaps power. Adam and Eve broke the "trust" of God, He could no longer trust them to act responsibly with whatever knowledge and power He could give them.

After the fall, the challenge for God was to rebuild trust and loyalty, which is the essence of "faith." It is not blind trust, it is loyalty and trust between two parties. God gives knowledge on a "needs to know basis" to those who can be trusted because they have proven that trust. Truth is not a collection of facts. The most critical truth is about the inner workings of living, spiritual beings and the bonds of understanding, knowledge and love between them.

Think what the world would be like if humans could "see inside" others into each other's inner being - would you trust everyone around you with that kind of intimate knowledge, especially if they have betrayed your trust in the past and have a history of doing so? So do all humans have a "right" to all knowledge and truth even when they cannot be trusted?

Doesn't access to critical truth depend upon trustworthiness, of proven trust? Faith is not a one way street - it works both ways: your trust in God and God's trust in you.

In ch 2 and 5 of Problem of Pain, Lewis takes up the argument that God could have created perfectly "good" beings who always chose to act rightly. He dismisses the possibility. How could a being have both the ability to make choices and be guaranteed to always "do good?" Once choices happen where beings live with other conscious agents, there is the possibility of crossing each other and creating discord, anger, evil and hatred.

Lewis suggests that God perhaps could follow individuals around, always correcting wrongs by miraculous intervention, but dismisses a world continually underpropped and corrected by divine intervention as one where nothing important ever depended upon human choice. God continually correcting and fixing consequences of my choices would mean that my choices were not mine at all but innocuous acts always subject to "editing" by God. To create beings with a dignity of choice means their choices must be meaningful and dramatic because their choices have real consequences on the world. God took on the risk and responsibility of "forming" humans through learning from the choices we make, not by "taking over" and fixing consequences so our choices have no real personal or unique impact on the world, but through working "with us" to learn from our choices.


OTavern,

Sorry I never noticed this earlier, but since I have now, I must ask this question;

If god accepts his responsibility for "forming" humans imperfect and capable of sin, then how can he only selectively forgive them, and only when they beg him for it?

The concept of liability implies that if you are responsible for something [an act/person/event], you must pay the consequence ... WITHOUT PRECONDITION.

His "forgiving" us of our sins, and allowing us to return to him only AFTER the process of redemption does not comply with the concept you offered of his "responsibility" for the "risk" he took in creating us capable of sin, does it?
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ape



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Post: #254   PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
whitetrshsoldier wrote:

If god accepts his responsibility for "forming" humans imperfect and capable of sin, then how can he only selectively forgive them, and only when they beg him for it?

The concept of liability implies that if you are responsible for something [an act/person/event], you must pay the consequence ... WITHOUT PRECONDITION.

His "forgiving" us of our sins, and allowing us to return to him only AFTER the process of redemption does not comply with the concept you offered of his "responsibility" for the "risk" he took in creating us capable of sin, does it?


Excellent, WTS!

Therefore, all are already 'saved': Romans 11:26,

and were never lost in the 1st place--except for thinking they were lost when they were actually found--like thinking I am lost when I am actually exactly where I want to be, like looking for what I already found, like looking for my glasses when they are on my forehead: The Search Is Over..song.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved:

Welcome back. smile

Thanx.
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Hermit Philosopher



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Post: #255   PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:35 pm    Post subject: On why there is evil... (according to me) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
See instead this ”god” as a consciousness, emerging from the division of singularis at the beginning of space and time. Suddenly self-aware, by notion of no longer being one with the data before It; It now seeks only to comprehend Itself by making sense of Its surroundings: that random chaos – the basis for all that ever be.

And though this “god” is free to do as It pleases with Its access to all existing knowledge, It cannot yet know the full implications of having systematized data into order; e.g. into laws of theoretical existence. For that, It must fist actually manifest a probable existence within this order and, also integrate Its own consciousness in such hypothetical being.
Through the idea of Man, can “god” then come to understand differences between good and bad laws. But in order to evaluate their outcomes, every single potential possibility must be manifested and put to the test. Hence the reason for evil and bad, both in Man and nature.
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