Is Suicide Immoral?

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Alias
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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Alias » May 11th, 2018, 11:30 am

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 11th, 2018, 5:58 am

I assume you mean heaven in this statement.
Considered it; settled on haven as secular and more apt in the context.
"Support" and paying attention ought to mean respecting the wish of others to be able to end their lives.
Absolutely. I believe I've established my position on that.
But a support structure would also prevent unnecessary suicides, through intervention in adolescent crises, alleviation of anxiety and stress in family relations*, bullying and shaming, substance abuse, gambling, abandonment and loneliness in old age, curable illness, repairable injury and all kinds of fixable problems that people can't face on their own.

*One category of suicide we haven't considered is a quite common one: the desperate man (and rarely, woman) who kills his loved ones and himself, because he sees no other escape from insurmountable difficulties.

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 11th, 2018, 11:53 am

Alias wrote:
May 11th, 2018, 11:30 am

*One category of suicide we haven't considered is a quite common one: the desperate man (and rarely, woman) who kills his loved ones and himself, because he sees no other escape from insurmountable difficulties.
That's not suicide; it's murder. Murder by support network.

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Alias » May 11th, 2018, 1:24 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 11th, 2018, 11:53 am
[ the desperate man (and rarely, woman) who kills his loved ones and himself, because he sees no other escape from insurmountable difficulties.]

That's not suicide; it's murder. Murder by support network.
What do you mean murder by support network? Surely, it happens, rather for lack of a support network.
Technically, it's murder-suicide, even if the murderee is a terminally ill spouse who wants to die and is incapable of carrying out an unassisted suicide, or a horribly damaged child, sentenced by society to suffer until the age of majority.

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by NasloxiehRorsxez » May 11th, 2018, 2:57 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 10th, 2018, 5:13 am
NasloxiehRorsxez wrote:
May 9th, 2018, 11:04 pm


hm, well I think you could argue that in the case of suicide as opposed to other ways of dying. There's a sense of possibility that whatever mental issues or mindset of the suicidal individual could have changed, and was preventable.

I don't really think it's the same with terminal illness, accidents, murder, etc.
But you have argued your case against suicide on the basis of the family suffering. Since you agree that that suffering is inevitable and unavoidable what is NOW your argument?
Since the suffering is going to happen at some point why not get it out of the way?
Death is not ultimately preventable.
It seems to me that your argument (such as it remains) would put unnecessary guilt upon the 'suicider' to forebear on the relief of his own suffering, and also condemn the family to continue to suffer the problems of the 'suicider'.

Suicide is not the same as "terminal illness, accidents, murder, etc.", but neither are they the same as each other. But when it comes to the loss of a relative/friend I do not see suicide as necessarily anything more suffer inducing that any of the others.
For example a person murdered can make the family suffer for generations. In this case at least suicide is less painful, being a conscious decision. Terminal illness which is possibly the most likely outcome of NOT suiciding, make the family suffer more, than suicide not less.
So I fail to see what your objection is.
Death is inevitable, but not the circumstances in which we die are.

How the others mentioned differ from suicide by mental problems or illness is that they more objective in their outcomes (terminal illness, cancer, etc) or that generally, they were far more subject to chance (Accidents, murder). Thus, they are less preventable. (Assuming a sufferer or mental illness or issues has access to help)

It's true that you could go on living miserably with mental illness or issues in spite of doing everything you can to the best of your ability, it's also true that something could also work and make life worth living to the sufferer.

Also, @Alias. That's a good question. It depends on the context I would think, you have to take into account the patient's attitude, the physicians competence, communication between the two. But ultimately, priority should go to the patient.

Here's a few other question for you guys, in cases of suicidal ideation due to mental illness or issues, how can we ensure the least amount of suffering to those affected by it?

Also, how would you justify suicide by mental illness or issues in a utilitarian sense?

Lastly, if you guys have heard of Antinatalism, do you think advocating suicide weakens that philosophical position?

Correct me if im misrepresenting these two positions.

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 11th, 2018, 4:08 pm

Alias wrote:
May 11th, 2018, 1:24 pm
ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 11th, 2018, 11:53 am
[ the desperate man (and rarely, woman) who kills his loved ones and himself, because he sees no other escape from insurmountable difficulties.]

That's not suicide; it's murder. Murder by support network.
What do you mean murder by support network? Surely, it happens, rather for lack of a support network.
Technically, it's murder-suicide, even if the murderee is a terminally ill spouse who wants to die and is incapable of carrying out an unassisted suicide, or a horribly damaged child, sentenced by society to suffer until the age of majority.
What I mean is that if a man kills his entire family that is ;
1) Not suicide, but murder. There is NO 'technicality'. he's a murdered who also kills himself- that does not make it mass suicide.
2) The family is the support; hence my closing comment.

In the western world I doubt this really happens as you suggest. It's more to do with pig headed selfishness, in a sociopathic murderer.
Please do not change the goal posts. You were not talking about euthanasia in your example.

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Alias » May 11th, 2018, 4:53 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 11th, 2018, 4:08 pm
1) Not suicide, but murder. There is NO 'technicality'. he's a murdered who also kills himself- that does not make it mass suicide.
I didn't say mass suicide. I said murder - suicide. Both. There may be other guilt suicides, as well: people who were not punished by the law for atrocities committed in war, or political upheaval, or in criminal activity, such as an abduction, or a perverse need to molest children - that the perpetrator cannot bear to live with. Killing oneself is always suicide, regardless of what preceded it.
2) The family is the support; hence my closing comment.
It evidently wasn't.
In the western world I doubt this really happens as you suggest.
Far more frequently than you'd imagine. Typically, the man had been a poor husband and father; the woman left him, taking the children, and moved to a shelter or her parents' home. The man broods, drinks, broods; builds up an unsupportable load of bitter resentment and self-pity; buys a gun, finds the wife and kills everyone in the house.
In other cases, the parent kills the children to spare them a worse fate, or a more painful death. The world can be a very, very dark place.
Even in the prosperous, enlightened western industrial nations, it's not a bed of roses for everyone.
Please do not change the goal posts. You were not talking about euthanasia in your example.
Euthanasia is one example. I know of several actual cases (the most famous being Arthur and Cynthia Koestler) where the healthy spouse took her or his own life, rather than allow a terminal patient to suffer any longer, and didn't want to face the degradation of legal punishment for helping them.
There are all kinds of examples.
Everyone who decides to end their own life has a reason, though we don't necessarily agree with other people's reasons.

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by ThomasHobbes » May 11th, 2018, 5:14 pm

Alias wrote:
May 11th, 2018, 4:53 pm
This is the example we were talking about before you changed the goal posts.

the desperate man (and rarely, woman) who kills his loved ones and himself, because he sees no other escape from insurmountable difficulties.


It's pointless if you argue against my comments based on some other example.

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Alias » May 11th, 2018, 6:49 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
May 11th, 2018, 5:14 pm
This is the example we were talking about before you changed the goal posts.
What goal posts? I didn't even know there was a football game.
I was merely expressing opinions and citing situations wherein people kill themselves.

As to the murder-suicide, in the context was that a robust social support structure would prevent unnecessary suicides, of the types I then go on to mention.
But a support structure would also prevent unnecessary suicides, through intervention in adolescent crises, alleviation of anxiety and stress in family relations*.[ bullying and shaming, substance abuse, gambling, abandonment and loneliness in old age, curable illness, repairable injury and all kinds of fixable problems that people can't face on their own] *One category of suicide we haven't considered is a quite common one:
"the desperate man (and rarely, woman) who kills his loved ones and himself, because he sees no other escape from insurmountable difficulties."
I don't see your problem.

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Alias » May 11th, 2018, 7:03 pm

Sorry, I overlooked this post earlier.
NasloxiehRorsxez wrote:
May 11th, 2018, 2:57 pm
It's true that you could go on living miserably with mental illness or issues in spite of doing everything you can to the best of your ability, it's also true that something could also work and make life worth living to the sufferer.
Which is why I suggested a case-by-case judgment. This is not a moral question: for some people, help is available and effective; for others, it is not. They alone can decide whether the life they have is worth continuing.
Here's a few other question for you guys, in cases of suicidal ideation due to mental illness or issues, how can we ensure the least amount of suffering to those affected by it?
Excellent universal comprehensive health care. Vigilant teachers to catch developing problems early. Caring friends.
Also, how would you justify suicide by mental illness or issues in a utilitarian sense?
Sick people cost more - in material resources, in lost productivity, stress on the family and community - than dead people.
But the mandate here is not to justify anything.
Lastly, if you guys have heard of Antinatalism, do you think advocating suicide weakens that philosophical position?
I have only a vague idea what they advocate, beyond refraining from reproduction.
IOW - don't know

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by NasloxiehRorsxez » May 15th, 2018, 3:06 pm

Alias wrote:
May 11th, 2018, 7:03 pm
Sorry, I overlooked this post earlier.
NasloxiehRorsxez wrote:
May 11th, 2018, 2:57 pm
It's true that you could go on living miserably with mental illness or issues in spite of doing everything you can to the best of your ability, it's also true that something could also work and make life worth living to the sufferer.
Which is why I suggested a case-by-case judgment. This is not a moral question: for some people, help is available and effective; for others, it is not. They alone can decide whether the life they have is worth continuing.
Here's a few other question for you guys, in cases of suicidal ideation due to mental illness or issues, how can we ensure the least amount of suffering to those affected by it?
Excellent universal comprehensive health care. Vigilant teachers to catch developing problems early. Caring friends.
Also, how would you justify suicide by mental illness or issues in a utilitarian sense?
Sick people cost more - in material resources, in lost productivity, stress on the family and community - than dead people.
But the mandate here is not to justify anything.
Lastly, if you guys have heard of Antinatalism, do you think advocating suicide weakens that philosophical position?
I have only a vague idea what they advocate, beyond refraining from reproduction.
IOW - don't know
Why should the mandate here be to not justify anything?

I agree regarding the utilitarian perspective. However, I think the point becomes null if family or friends disagree with suicide being an option. Yes, it is selfish on their part I agree. But you could say the same for the suicide.

And you don't think there's any case in which this could be considered a moral question? Suppose one has access to treatment, people they care for, yet they refuse treatment and commit suicide. Shouldn't people at least attempt to improve their situation before calling it quits? If you agree with that, then when has someone "done enough" to try and improve their situation for suicide to be the most rational option? Of course, I don't really know how often these scenarios occur in real life.

Also, Greta mentioned something important. Many of these cases tend to be a lapse in judgement, I absolutely agree, and I don't fault anyone for that at all. But I don't think that removes morality from the question. For instance, let's say someone with mental illness murders someone, with that mental illness being the direct of the murder. I'd say that removes malevolence form the act, but does it make the action any less wrong? (Also, they hypothetical is not intended to be an accurate representation of anything, really)

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Alias » May 15th, 2018, 6:52 pm

NasloxiehRorsxez wrote:
May 15th, 2018, 3:06 pm
Why should the mandate here be to not justify anything?
The question was: Do you think it's immoral?
Asking for an opinion. We all have our reasons for deciding one way or the other, but none of us in a position to make the dead answer for whatever we disagree with. When the majority of law-makers obeyed church doctrine, suicide was illegal. But they could never punish suicide; they could only punish the surviving relatives - and of course they could punish failure.
However, I think the point becomes null if family or friends disagree with suicide being an option. Yes, it is selfish on their part I agree. But you could say the same for the suicide.
Everybody's selfish. This is hardly news. In this case, if the would-be suicide bends to the pro-survival camp, he is punished for his unselfishness in refraining, but the family is rewarded for its selfishness. That looks uneven to me.
And you don't think there's any case in which this could be considered a moral question?
As I said: it is for the religious. It may be, for someone who made a promise or undertook the care of dependents, and they are still capable of carrying out their duties. In such a case, abandonment by death is the same as abandonment by running away.
Suppose one has access to treatment, people they care for, yet they refuse treatment and commit suicide. Shouldn't people at least attempt to improve their situation before calling it quits?
They usually do. Most people prefer to live, and do so, long after their life is no longer worth living. The persons who kill themselves on a whim, when they have better alternatives, must be a very small minority, and I'm not sure we can understand their motivation well enough to judge.

Where does the "should" come from? Who - if not the owner of the life - has the authority to make the ultimate value judgment?
If you agree with that, then when has someone "done enough" to try and improve their situation for suicide to be the most rational option?
When they deem that they have done enough. Nobody else knows.
For instance, let's say someone with mental illness murders someone, with that mental illness being the direct of the murder. I'd say that removes malevolence form the act, but does it make the action any less wrong?
It does in law. Diminished capacity to assess the act being committed, or inability to understand the consequences, is an accepted defense.
So is inability to see an alternative- as in self-defense.
But these are very different situations. We can categorically deny anyone's right to end another person's life (except officially, if convicted of a capital offence - and I don't condone that, either), on the grounds of their autonomy. By the same token, I categorically deny anyone's right to force me to live, on the grounds of my autonomy.

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Dissimulation » July 11th, 2018, 8:37 am

it's not a group activity, it's foolish to presuppose an individuals self identical state and suffering as being subject to comprehension by any other. if only because judgement is made by one unexperienced in death. more so, Seems unlikely the dead concern themselves with the discourse of the living. social and theological judgements are irrelevant for the dead are free from consequences. I contend it's a self identical 'ethical' determination subject to the unique comprehension and condition of the individual. does it matter? such suffering is likely to disinterest the soon to be dead.

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Dissimulation » July 11th, 2018, 8:38 am

* possible group activity, avoid the cool aide.

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Dissimulation » July 11th, 2018, 8:42 am

Dissimulation wrote:
July 11th, 2018, 8:37 am
it's not a group activity, it's foolish to presuppose an individuals self identical state and suffering as being subject to comprehension by any other. if only because judgement is made by one unexperienced in death. more so, Seems unlikely the dead concern themselves with the discourse of the living. social and theological judgements are irrelevant for the dead are free from consequences. I contend it's a self identical 'ethical' determination subject to the unique comprehension and condition of the individual. does it matter? such suffering is likely to avert one away from armchair discussions.

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Re: Is Suicide Immoral?

Post by Dissimulation » July 11th, 2018, 11:01 am

Dissimulation wrote:
July 11th, 2018, 8:37 am
it's not a group activity, it's foolish to presuppose an individuals self identical state and suffering as being subject to comprehension by any other. if only because judgement is made by one unexperienced in death. more so, Seems unlikely the dead concern themselves with the discourse of the living. social and theological judgements are irrelevant for the dead are free from consequences. I contend it's a self identical 'ethical' determination subject to the unique comprehension and condition of the individual. does it matter? such suffering is likely to avert one away from armchair discussions.

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