Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

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Consul
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by Consul »

chewybrian wrote: June 24th, 2018, 4:53 amAgain, none of this is intended to 'prove' consciousness is not physical, but only to show that you can not, have not proven that it is, and that there is considerable doubt.
The doubt that consciousness is nonphysical is much stronger:

"How could a nonphysical property or entity suddenly arise in the course of animal evolution? A change in a gene is a change in a complex molecule which causes a change in the biochemistry of the cell. This may lead to changes in the shape or organization of the developing embryo. But what sort of chemical process could lead to the springing into existence of something nonphysical? No enzyme can catalyze the production of a spook! Perhaps it will be said that the nonphysical comes into existence as a by-product: that whenever there is a certain complex physical structure, then, by an irreducible extraphysical law, there is also a nonphysical entity. Such laws would be quite outside normal scientific conceptions and quite inexplicable: they would be, in Herbert Feigl’s phrase, 'nomological danglers.' To say the very least, we can vastly simplify our cosmological outlook if we can defend a materialistic philosophy of mind."

(Smart, J. J. C. "Materialism." Journal of Philosophy 60, no. 22 (October 1963): 651-662. p. 660)

An extremely plausible principle can be derived from Smart's statements:

Whatever naturally arises/emerges from or is naturally caused/produced by (nothing but) physical entities is physical itself.


"Three (nonapodictic) reasons might be offered in support of the hypothesis [that consciousness is a state of matter]. First, it is hard to see what else consciousness could be. Consciousness exists in a world of matter/energy, not outside of that world (as God and his angels might be supposed to exist), and depends essentially on (other) forms of matter, causally and otherwise. Given that Cartesian dualism has daunting problems, and is not even clearly intelligible, there doesn't seem much of an alternative to supposing mind to be in some way a modification of matter; the question is, in what way. What we really want to know, in thinking about the mind-body problem, is how it is possible for consciousness to be what we know that it must be. What kind of materialism (if we must use the term) is defensible? Put differently, consciousness must be an aspect of the same world that (other) forms of matter are also aspects of, notably the brain. Organisms are modes of matter, with some distinctive properties, and consciousness is a biological property of organisms; so it is only natural to assume that consciousness too is a form of matter. To say that it is a form of an 'immaterial' substance is to fly in the face of the obvious truth that consciousness is part of the world of embodied organisms—not a separate parallel world, with strange causal connections to the regular corporeal world. There is really nothing else for consciousness to be a mode of than the very stuff that everything else is a mode of.

Secondly, conservation laws in physics preclude the idea of a radically new kind of stuff, energy or matter, coming into existence. So when consciousness came to exist, no new substance was added to the world: old stuff simply took on a new form. Descartes' dualism violates conservation, since extra causal powers—extra energy—are introduced by the injection of mind into the world. His immaterial substance is an independent source of energy and hence motion, so that conservation is bluntly violated. A better view is that pre-existing matter takes new forms in cosmic history—from galaxies to organisms—and consciousness must itself be a form of what existed earlier. But there must be a fundamental constancy in the underlying substance of the world, whatever that may be: so consciousness must be a variant on this substance, not a new type of substance.

Energy is plausibly the fundamental conserved substance, so consciousness has to be a form of energy—a form of the very same thing that electricity and mass are forms of. Moreover, energy in its various forms can be transformed into mental energy—as when the chemical energy in food (deriving from solar energy) is converted into causally efficacious acts of will and other mental work. The energy that powers the mind is nothing other than the energy that exists in various physical forms; and so it is plausible to suppose that the mind itself is a manifestation of that energy. Certainly, the electromagnetic energy of the brain has everything to do with the energy exhibited by the mind, i.e., its ability to do work. The world we observe is a world where conservation is the norm—where nothing fundamentally new comes to be. Novelty comes from recombination, not from new basic realities. Similarly, when consciousness fades away, nothing basic goes out of existence; rather, it changes form—going back to material forms of other kinds. Such continuity suggests that consciousness is just matter/energy in one of its many guises. Kinds of matter/energy can go out of existence, or be created, but the underlying stuff stays constant—as when particles change into other kinds of particles or electrical energy converts to kinetic energy. And the same is true of the kind of matter/energy we call consciousness. Consciousness is a temporary form that universal matter/energy has taken, along with other forms.

Third, and connected, the big bang contained all the materials for generating the universe from then on. New particles came to be in the first few moments, and new forces too, but everything had to be implicit in the initial super-hot plasma: everything that followed had to be a form of what was there at the start. All novelty works with the raw materials of the primal singularity (just as the big bang itself had to be a conservation of what was there earlier). But if so, then consciousness must be somehow implicit in the big bang too: it must be a working out of the matter/energy there at that instant, like planets and organisms. Some of what is new is mere recombination (this is probably true of organisms, now that the élan vital has lost its appeal), and some of it consists in new forms of what was there earlier (were gravitation and electric charge explicitly present at the very earliest stages?). But nothing we see in the universe now belongs to neither category: so consciousness must be one or the other—and the recombination view is not credible. Consciousness must be a new form of the stuff that was present in the first moments of the universe—one of the modes of which matter is capable. There was no ghostly parallel big bang in which immaterial stuff was minted, with consciousness a form of that: consciousness had to have its origin in the very event that originated all the matter of the universe. If we think of the history of the universe since the first moments of the big bang as a process of differentiation in matter, then consciousness is one of the many ways in which matter came to be differentiated—and clearly it specializes in such differentiation. Matter is nothing if not protean."


(McGinn, Colin. "Consciousness as a Form of Matter." In Basic Structures of Reality: Essays in Meta-Physics, 175-191. New York: Oxford University Press, 2011. pp. 179-81)
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by Present awareness »

chewybrian wrote: June 24th, 2018, 9:14 am
Present awareness wrote: June 24th, 2018, 8:40 am That which is physical, has mass and can be measured in terms of weight, size, etc. Light does not have mass and therefore is not physical, in accordance with the definition. Calling light physical, doesn’t make it so, but anyone can say whatever they like, just as I’m doing here. Electricity is not physical, which allows it to travel freely though physical conductors. All forms of energy act upon mass, but have no mass of there own. A fire requires the chemical reaction between fuel, oxygen and heat and the byproduct is heat and light. The human body also required fuel, oxygen and heat and the byproduct is heat and consciousness (light).
I appreciate the effort and it has some appeal to say that consciousness is energy over saying it is matter. But, it quickly raises a couple questions:

Is energy or light physical, or does it need its own category?

Does consciousness share any properties of energy or light that might be verified? Can your awareness charge a battery, cast a shadow, or set something on fire? What is it about consciousness that could put it in the category of energy, whether we call that a subset of matter or something else?
I have no proof of anything I say, but to me, philosophy is not so much about proof, but rather more about a way of looking at things as they might be.

The electrical current flowing through the brain can be measured on a machine, but where does this electricity come from? We know that in a thermocouple, if two dissimilar metals are heated, a small electrical current is produced. And in batteries, certain chemicals can store electricity. We know that the human body generates electricity and uses it throughout the brain and nervous system. In open brain surgery, with the patient awake, when the surgeon stimulates certain areas of the brain with a small electrical charge, memories will flash into the patients consciousness. In my view, consciousness is like a hologram, constructed by all the areas in the brain which are being stimulated at any given moment. A physical body, being stimulated by a non physical energy. Although I’ve been using the word “electricity” it may be more accurate to call it light.
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by Consul »

Physicalism is the view that all entities (existing, real things) belonging to the subject matter of chemistry, biology, psychology, or sociology are ontologically reducible to or emergent from (complexes of) entities belonging to the subject matter of physics, the fundamental science of the matter-energy-space-time world.

Note that this definition concerns physicalism about concrete reality. There are physicalists who think that it is only about concrete reality and silent on whether there is also an abstract reality, i.e. whether platonism is true. But if physicalism is to be a comprehensive, all-encompassing worldview about all of reality, it denies that there are abstract entities, that the abstract objects belonging to the respective subject matters of linguistics (e.g. word-types), logic (e.g. propositions) and mathematics (e.g. numbers and sets) are real.
So here's a definition of global/total physicalism:

Physicalism is the view that all entities (existing, real things) are concrete, and that all concrete entities belonging to the subject matter of chemistry, biology, psychology, or sociology are ontologically reducible to or emergent from (complexes of) entities belonging to the subject matter of physics, the fundamental science of the matter-energy-space-time world.

Here's a corresponding definition of "physical":

An entity is physical iff it is either narrowly physical (physicSal) in the sense that it belongs to the subject matter of physics, or broadly physical in the sense that it is ontologically reducible to (identifiable with) or emergent from (systems of) narrowly physical (physicSal) entities.

(In the English language there is only one word, "physical", while in the German language there are two words, "physisch" and "physikalisch", with the latter meaning "relating to physics". So "physikalisch" = "physicSal".)
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by Tamminen »

Consul wrote: June 24th, 2018, 7:58 am To say that the subject matter of psychology/phenomenology is ontologically reducible to the subject matter of physics is not necessarily to say that the language, the concepts or predicates of psychology/phenomenology are translatable into and replaceable by the language, the concepts or predicates of physics.
So let us forget translating, and speak about a common conceptual framework, which is needed if we want to handle mental and material processes in the spirit of unified science.

If it were possible to create a common conceptual framework for consciousness and physical processes, which I doubt, the natural starting point would be consciousness and a phenomenological analysis of our immediate reality. It would proceed from an a priori basis and try to find out how the physical world necessarily appears to consciousness and what it must be like to make the being of consciousness possible and real. If we then find out something that corresponds to the conceptual apparatus of modern physics, we are close to the common language we are seeking. This is not an easy task but theoretically possible, and surely more possible than the other way round. And this approach has the advantage that it can possibly show why there is such a phenomenon as matter or the physical world, which from the materialistic perspective is a given but is in fact a mystery. That consciousness is a given is not a problem. The being of consciousness is not a mystery.
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by Consul »

Consul wrote: June 24th, 2018, 10:41 amHere's a corresponding definition of "physical":

An entity is physical iff it is either narrowly physical (physicSal) in the sense that it belongs to the subject matter of physics, or broadly physical in the sense that it is ontologically reducible to (identifiable with) or emergent from (systems of) narrowly physical (physicSal) entities.
Physical theories are mathematized ones, but it's important to exclude the abstract objects both mathematicians and physicists talk about from the realm of the physical.
(For example, a wave function is an abstract mathematical object which as such isn't part of concrete, physical reality. This is not to say that wave functions don't represent anything in physical reality, but there's a difference between a physical entity and a mathematical representation or model of it.)

An entity is physical iff it is a concrete entity, and it is either narrowly physical (physicSal) in the sense that it belongs to the subject matter of physics, or broadly physical in the sense that it is ontologically reducible to (identifiable with) or emergent from (systems of) narrowly physical (physicSal) entities.
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by Consul »

Consul wrote: June 24th, 2018, 10:41 amPhysicalism is the view that all entities (existing, real things) are concrete, and that all concrete entities belonging to the subject matter of chemistry, biology, psychology, or sociology are ontologically reducible to or emergent from (complexes of) entities belonging to the subject matter of physics, the fundamental science of the matter-energy-space-time world.
There's a disagreement among (self-declared) physicalists with regard to whether physicalism is compatible with ontological emergentism, according to which there are some kinds of higher-level entities—especially attributes (properties/qualities or relations)—in nature (especially psychological ones) which ontologically depend and supervene on, but are ontologically irreducible to (non-identifiable with) the base-level entities belonging to the subject matter of (micro)physics.

As far as I'm concerned, I think that nonreductive (emergentive or causative) physicalism may be regarded as a proper form of physicalism—especially in the light of the highly plausible principle that everything which naturally emerges from something (purely) physic(s)al is physical itself. (How could something purely physical naturally produce anything nonphysical?)

"Despite initial appearances, emergentism needn’t be non‐materialist. It is a thesis about how novel properties or substances arise, whatever their ontological status."

(Vision, Gerald. "Emergentism." In The Blackwell Companion to Consciousness, 2nd ed., edited by Susan Schneider and Max Velmans, 337-348. Malden, MA: Wiley-Blackwell, 2017. p. 338)
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

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How could something purely physical naturally produce anything nonphysical?

The physical neclear reaction within the Sun produces non physical light as a by-product. If you consider massless light to be physical, then there is simply a difference of opinion on the definition of the word physical.
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by JamesOfSeattle »

chewybrian wrote: June 24th, 2018, 4:53 amYou have two perfectly identical twins, one alive and one dead. What is the PHYSICAL difference between the two? How much does 'alive' weigh? How much space does it occupy? How many calories can you get from burning it? What characteristics of physical things are present in the life force? What physical thing or things could we add to the dead girl to make her alive?
This is the perfect response to the idea that philosophical zombies are conceivable. I’m assuming here that “perfectly identical” means “physically identical”. If something is alive, that just means it is expected to do certain things. Two things that are physically identical are going to do the same things, at least for a little while.

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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by Mosesquine »

chewybrian wrote: June 24th, 2018, 4:53 am
Mosesquine wrote: June 23rd, 2018, 3:32 pmPhysicalism is the very idea that thoughts in minds are essentially physical!!! You failed to refute physicalism!!! Psst---!!!
Well, you've laid out a self-fulfilling argument that accepts your conclusion as a given:
Mosesquine wrote: June 20th, 2018, 7:07 am1. Conscious phenomena exist.
2. Whatever exists is physical.
Therefore, 3. Conscious phenomena are physical.
Q.E.D.
Nobody could refute it, if they buy that, but I don't. Saying that consciousness is physical is not proving it. I am not attempting to disprove it, but simply to say that we don't know. It's my opinion that thoughts are not physical, but it could go either way.

You've avoided every question so far. See if you can answer these:

You have two perfectly identical twins, one alive and one dead. What is the PHYSICAL difference between the two? How much does 'alive' weigh? How much space does it occupy? How many calories can you get from burning it? What characteristics of physical things are present in the life force? What physical thing or things could we add to the dead girl to make her alive?

Again, none of this is intended to 'prove' consciousness is not physical, but only to show that you can not, have not proven that it is, and that there is considerable doubt.

Whatever we can find is in the physical world!!! Nonphysical things are just things that can't be found anywhere!!!
If your mind is nonphysical, then your mind does not exist. Your mind is, as you wish, nonphysical. Therefore, your mind does not exist!!!
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by JamesOfSeattle »

Tamminen wrote: June 24th, 2018, 4:47 am. You describe the structure of consciousness and its material requirements, but fail to solve the "hard problem", for which I do not blame you, because there is no such problem. Science can only find correlations between consciousness and material processes, not identity in the sense of a common conceptual framework.
I purport to explain the structure of consciousness. I purport to explain the necessary and sufficient conditions. If I’m correct, I can explain why philosophical zombies are not possible (which would come as a surprise to a lot of people). I can explain why machines can be conscious. I can explain it without reference to any new physics, which would surprise a lot of panpsychists. I can explain what qualia are, and why they are in a way epiphenominal but also indispensable in living systems.

What I’m looking for is an explanation of why my explanation is somehow unnecessary or insufficient.

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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by Gertie »

Gertie wrote: ↑
Yesterday, 10:49 am
There are no shortage of competing 'What If...' hypotheses in Philosophy of Mind :), the problem is finding ways to get further than that. Which is where our usual methodoloogy, our scientific model and toolkit, seems to fall short.
Sorry, that was my way of starting to talk about one such hypothesis.
Then my apologies for jumping the gun.

I’m trying to get at the fundamental requirements for consciousness, but different people have different views on what the fundamendental requirements are.
OK
I’m saying there is an underlying framework that establishes a hierarchy of physical processes, and where in that hierarchy consciousness begins is entirely dependent on personal preference.
You're discounting 'substance dualism' at the outset then? On what basis?


The Framework is simple mechanism. Any physical process can be described as Input —> [mechanism] —> Output. This is a functional process in the mathematical sense: any given input will produce exactly one output. The mechanism can be said to discern the input and “cause” the output.
I'd perhaps use a term like 'respond to' rather than 'discern', but OK.


So at the bottom of the hierarchy is the Framework and nothing else.
Being nit-picky here, but I think it would be clearer to say that one single process of Input -> Mechanism -> Output is at the bottom of the heirarchy, rather than the model itself.
If your personal preference is that nothing more is required, you’re a panpsychist.
Substance dualist panpsychists, or panpsychists who believe all (even inert) matter is conscious might disagree.
At (probably) the next higher level we have a process that serves a functional purpose. This includes mechanisms created by natural selection, like cell surface receptors, eyeballs, and brains. If your personal preference for the fundamental unit of consciousness is purposeful function, you’re a functionalist, and you would say bacteria are conscious.
I think that seeing Purpose as significant to consciousness in this way would need justifying. Natural selection doesn't have a purpose itself, it's just a result of gene mutation, happy accidents.


At a higher level, you might require that:
1. the Input constitutes semantic information, and
2. the output constitutes a response which is a valuable response to the meaning of the input.
This category would include anything with neurons, or mechanisms that act like neurons. This is my personal preference because here you get qualia (see below).
Speaking of 'semantic information' presupposes already existing consciousness, because the (syntactical) material processes are only meaningful (semantic) if there's a conscious subject already there to find meaning in them. And material responses are only valuable to already conscious critters who find value in them.
At a higher levels, you might require that at least part of the output constitutes memory, or that the input and/or output constitute concepts, or that input and/or output concepts be self-referential.
You're no longer talking about material processes, you're talking about mental states (remembering, conceptualising, self-awareness).
The human brain is obviously at the top of the hierarchy I described. My point is, these “experiential states” you refer to can (ultimately) be explained in terms of the appropriate mechanistic processes.
Sorry but I don't see it? I don't see the explanation.
If my understanding of consciousness is correct, the “mind-body relationship” is simply the relationship between mechanisms (body) and specific kinds of mental-type processes.
Sure. Observation of correlation makes it hard to doubt there's some kind of relationship between the body's processes and mental states.


It would be confusing to say that consciousness plays a causal role. Instead, you would say that some mechanistic (causal) processes are conscious-type processes.
Conceptually, that is an attractive conclusion. It solves the puzzle in a simple sentence. But it's when we get into the nitty gritty of explaining how that could be, it gets a lot trickier. IMO it's the beginning of the problem, not the end.
Gertie, I assume that when you mention “manifest consciousness” you are referring to the “manifest image”, the “what it feels like” criterion, the “Hard Problem”, i.e., qualia.
Yep. The 'what it's like' of experiencing something.
If my understanding of consciousness is correct, the explanation of qualia starts with processes with semantic information as input (thus, my personal preference described above).
As I said I have a prob with saying 'semantic' (meaningful) information precedes or exists independantly of experiential states, because imo only experiencing subjects can ascribe meaningfulness to anything. Likewise Purpose. Where is the meaning and purpose coming from in your model?
As mentioned above, in any process the mechanism can be said to discern the input and produce the output. If the input has meaning and the output is related to that meaning, the mechanism can be said to discern the meaning. A system which can produce concepts and memories can store the discernment of the input as a concept which represents the meaning of the input. Any time this system accesses that concept, it is accessing the meaning. I suggest that a “quale” is a discernment of meaning. A quale of “red ball” is simply a discernment of a “red ball” via semantic information whose meaning is “red ball”. The more commonly used term for this discernment is “feeling”.
Well, what we know is that there are patterns of neurons interacting which correlate to my (what it's like') experience of seeing a red ball. Both those things are real, the material processes, and the experiential state. And I'm struggling to see what your more abstract description of those real things is adding to understanding them? I consciously discern the red ball, because I'm conscious. It means something to me, because I'm conscious. If I wasn't already conscious, then photons bouncing off the ball and onto me wouldn't be consciously discerned (seen) or mean anything to me.
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by SimpleGuy »

Yes, yes brain functions, but you mentioned that it cannot be reduced to a physical wolrd. You argued via the mental spirit of all organic living beeings. But what if other beeings which are not that carbon centered build up, could work and think like we but would not be made out of mainly carbon based composites. Could they have a conciousness ? Who knows ?

But as twilight zone said:
Up there, up there in the vastness of space, in the void that is sky, up there is an enemy known as isolation.

:lol: :D
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by Consul »

Present awareness wrote: June 24th, 2018, 12:37 pmHow could something purely physical naturally produce anything nonphysical?
The physical neclear reaction within the Sun produces non physical light as a by-product. If you consider massless light to be physical, then there is simply a difference of opinion on the definition of the word physical.
I know no philosopher or scientist who defines "physical" in such a way that light becomes nonphysical. Light (as "the form of electromagnetic radiation to which the human eye is sensitive" – Oxford Dictionary of Physics) and photons are certainly physical phenomena. There is no "nonphysical light".
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by Consul »

JamesOfSeattle wrote: June 24th, 2018, 12:54 pm
chewybrian wrote: June 24th, 2018, 4:53 amYou have two perfectly identical twins, one alive and one dead. What is the PHYSICAL difference between the two? How much does 'alive' weigh? How much space does it occupy? How many calories can you get from burning it? What characteristics of physical things are present in the life force? What physical thing or things could we add to the dead girl to make her alive?
This is the perfect response to the idea that philosophical zombies are conceivable. I’m assuming here that “perfectly identical” means “physically identical”. If something is alive, that just means it is expected to do certain things. Two things that are physically identical are going to do the same things, at least for a little while.
If two persons are perfectly physically identical, it is impossible that one is alive and the other one is dead, since their perfect physical identity means that they are either both alive or both dead.
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by Consul »

Gertie wrote: June 24th, 2018, 1:23 pmSpeaking of 'semantic information' presupposes already existing consciousness, because the (syntactical) material processes are only meaningful (semantic) if there's a conscious subject already there to find meaning in them.
Charles Peirce wrote that "a sign is an object which stands for another to some mind," but does it have to be a conscious mind? Is it impossible in principle for a nonconscious AI robot to perceive and process semantic information?
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by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021