Is morality objective or subjective?

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
Post Reply
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Belindi »

LuckyR wrote: July 16th, 2018, 3:24 pm
Belindi wrote: July 16th, 2018, 2:43 pm
But hot, tall, heavy, fast, are relative to the observer and to other variables. Same as what we conventionally name moral terms such as fair, valuable, cruel , painful are relative to the observer and to other variables.
Ah, but while you can taller or shorter than me, your measurement is along a linear scale, say of cm. Say you are 163. My position can also be noted and a comparison made... or not, you are still 163 cm. However, fairness is commonly also attempted to be measured on a linear scale, but since the definition of what fairness is (unlike the universally understood meaning of height), varies dramatically, fairness is actually measured along a set of linear scales, not a single one (depending on the definition of what constitutes fairness).
But educationists and legislators select scales to fit with specific circumstances such as available space for homework, or loss of income relative to basic human needs.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Felix »

Peter Holmes: You are still confusing values judgements with factual assertions, as does Aristotle.
Aristotle did not confuse the two, but Hume did and so have you. Hume said that moral judgements cannot be derived from descriptive premises alone (what you call factual assertions or claims), which is true. However, there is another kind of truth that is not based solely on descriptive statements, and it is called prescriptive truth.

Aristotle explained that prescriptive or practical judgements are true in so far as they conform to right desire, rather than to what exists in reality, as is the case with descriptive truth. He then goes on to explain what right desire is, which leads to the distinction between natural and acquired desires, and real and apparent goods, and how the inability or failure to distinguish between them can lead to the sort of misguided moral relativism you have espoused. I'd rather not repeat his entire argument but it successfully refutes the one you have made.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Belindi »

Hume said that values cannot be derived from empirical facts as a matter of deduction. However as a matter of human nature Hume said that sympathy, what we'd call empathy, is a necessary component, and as such it's an empirical fact and moral values are obtained from the empirical fact of sympathy(empathy).

Values pertain to human nature . The times are gone when a pig or a mountain could be accused of immorality.
Peter Holmes
Posts: 562
Joined: July 19th, 2017, 8:20 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

Felix

Thanks for explaining Aristotle's claim. I have come across it before, which is why i know it's a mistake.

1 The idea of prescriptive truth is incoherent. A prescription or precept is a rule, and rules have no truth value. Please can you give an example of a prescriptive truth or judgement that is a falsifiable assertion. Obviously, it can't be said to be true unless is could also be false.

2 You haven't provided, as I requested, an example of a judgement about a desire's 'rightness' or 'wrongness' that is a falsifiable assertion. I assume that means you can't.

3 You haven't provided an example of what you call a real good and an apparent good. It would help me to understand what you mean by 'good' in this context.

Rather than repeating Aristotle's claims, please justify them with evidence in the form of examples.
Peter Holmes
Posts: 562
Joined: July 19th, 2017, 8:20 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

Felix - a quick follow-up.

'Aristotle explained that prescriptive or practical judgements are true in so far as they conform to right desire, rather than to what exists in reality, as is the case with descriptive truth.'

You speak of this as though there's something canonical and unarguable. He didn't 'explain' this, as though it was the case and just needed clarifying. He claimed it - and he was wrong. The claim 'prescriptive or practical judgements are true in so far as they conform to right desire' is a conceptual mess. Again, please give an example to show that you understand it - and help me to as well.
Spectrum
Posts: 5161
Joined: December 21st, 2010, 1:25 am
Favorite Philosopher: Eclectic -Various

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Spectrum »

DNA wise, Morality is an inherent drive within ALL humans.
The Moral Life of Babies
Morality is not just something that people learn, argues Yale psychologist Paul Bloom: It is something we are all born with. At birth, babies are endowed with compassion, with empathy, with the beginnings of a sense of fairness.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... of-babies/
The function of Morality must be approach within a Framework and System of Morality and Ethics.

Morality refer to the Pure aspects i.e. absolute Moral Laws
Ethics refer the the Applied aspects, i.e. flexible maxims derived from absolute moral laws to be practiced by individual and society. Note this has nothing to do with legislative laws which is a political issue.

Morality and Ethics has to be a private and personal self-development in tandem with the collective consensus.

Within the Framework and System of Morality and Ethics [FSME], absolute moral laws can be established and grounded from empirical evidence.
It is empirically evident no living species had emerged with the purpose to be extinct immediately, i.e. to survive at all costs till the inevitable.

Therefore the Absolute Moral Law for an individual is
"To Survive at all cost & to preserve the species till the inevitable"

Note as an Absolute Moral Law, this is only a guide and not enforceable.

From the above, other secondary absolute moral laws are derived.
E.g. no humans can kill another, period, no ifs nor buts.

Where ifs and buts are applied, that is within ethics where certain killings can be justified subject to the overriding absolute moral laws at all times.

In another perspective this grounded absolute laws are borrowed for legislation where enforceable laws are enacted related to killing of human[s].

Other than killing, there are other sub-moral laws that can be derived from the primary absolute moral laws.
Not-a-theist. Religion is a critical necessity for humanity now, but not the FUTURE.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Belindi »

The Moral Life of Babies
Morality is not just something that people learn, argues Yale psychologist Paul Bloom: It is something we are all born with. At birth, babies are endowed with compassion, with empathy, with the beginnings of a sense of fairness.
Yes there is the latent possibility. However possibilities don't become manifested without nurturing environment. This applies to plants, animals and men. It's necessary for men in order to learn any morality that they be exposed to that morality at the time of their lives when learning can take place.

Spectrum wrote:
Therefore the Absolute Moral Law for an individual is
"To Survive at all cost & to preserve the species till the inevitable"
I sort of agree although I'd reword it. My main answer to you Spectrum,regarding your "absolute moral law", is that you haven't defined who is to be preserved and to what degree. You say "the species". But the species can't survive unless the other species also survive, and unless the entire geography of Earth survives. It's also arguable the the species as we know it can't survive unless individual men aim beyond their ids .
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Felix »

Peter Holmes: A prescription or precept is a rule, and rules have no truth value.
A prescriptive truth is a judgement, not a rule, based on facts about human nature, and it has practical truth if it expresses a desire for a good that we actually need.
You haven't provided, as I requested, an example of a judgement about a desire's 'rightness' or 'wrongness' that is a falsifiable assertion. I assume that means you can't.
No, it just means that you do not understand the difference between prescriptive and descriptive truths. The correspondence theory of truth only applies to descriptive statements, statements that involve assertions about what is or is not.
You haven't provided an example of what you call a real good and an apparent good. It would help me to understand what you mean by 'good' in this context.
As I said, real goods are based on natural needs whereas apparent goods are based on acquired wants. Pardon me if I cheat by quoting from this interview that Bill Moyers conducted with Mortimer Adler on Aristotle's philosophy:

http://billmoyers.com/content/secondbil ... aristotle/

"All our wants, Bill, your wants and my wants are different. The wants of every human being differ from those of others. It’s our natural desires, our needs that are the same. We all need — let me talk about the biological needs. We all need food, clothing, shelter, rest, play, and sensuous pleasure on the biological level. On the human level — spiritually, intellectually — we all need friendship and love. We all need a good society to live in. We all need knowledge and wisdom. There are the things our nature seeks, and our nature being the same in all of us, what we seek — not consciously, but naturally — the good man is one who desires what he ought to desire, or desires what conforms to his natural desires."
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Peter Holmes
Posts: 562
Joined: July 19th, 2017, 8:20 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

Peter Holmes: A prescription or precept is a rule, and rules have no truth value.
Felix: A prescriptive truth is a judgement, not a rule, based on facts about human nature, and it has practical truth if it expresses a desire for a good that we actually need.
This is evasion. Please show an example of such a supposed prescriptive truth - an assertion with a truth value - and so falsifiable.
Peter Holmes: You haven't provided, as I requested, an example of a judgement about a desire's 'rightness' or 'wrongness' that is a falsifiable assertion. I assume that means you can't.
Felix: No, it just means that you do not understand the difference between prescriptive and descriptive truths. The correspondence theory of truth only applies to descriptive statements, statements that involve assertions about what is or is not.
More evasion. I don't accept the correspondence theory anyway. Please give an example of a prescriptive truth under your preferred theory. You seem convinced there are such things.
Peter Holmes: You haven't provided an example of what you call a real good and an apparent good. It would help me to understand what you mean by 'good' in this context.
Felix: As I said, real goods are based on natural needs whereas apparent goods are based on acquired wants.
Please give an example of a real 'good' and an apparent 'good', and we'll see if you're equivocating on the meaning of 'good'. Don't be shy.

To conclude, I think you're parroting what you take to be Aristotelian 'truths', but have no evidence to back them up. But, of course, I may be completely wrong. I await your response. But please don't tell me what I don't understand. Make me understand with evidence.
Gertie
Posts: 2181
Joined: January 7th, 2015, 7:09 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Gertie »

Felix
Peter Holmes: The equivocation on 'goods' - first meaning 'things we need', then implicitly meaning 'moral good', as in 'things that are right and not wrong' is glaring.
No equivocation there, do I need to spell out in detail the obvious logic of those statements?
It might seem obvious that satisfying survival needs is a moral good - but why, what is that claim grounded in?

Is surviving inherently/objectively morally good, in all cases, if so why? Is killing always objectively wrong? Does it include all living things (bacteria, carrots, ants, cows, dogs, chimps) ?

In order to have a basis to answer such questions you need a justifiable underlying axiomatic foundation. The objective basis on which to claim meeting (some/all?) survival needs (of all/some living things?) is objectively morally good. And without that, the charge of equivocation is fair.

In other words, you need to think it through to the next step - what's the basis for your claim. And if you do, you might find it more difficult to claim morality is/can be 'objective'. Imo.
Gertie
Posts: 2181
Joined: January 7th, 2015, 7:09 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Gertie »

Felix
As I said, real goods are based on natural needs whereas apparent goods are based on acquired wants.
Wants/desires are also rooted in human evolution (as are our basic moral/social predispositions), hence 'natural'. Which are then honed by experience in different ways.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Felix »

Gertie: It might seem obvious that satisfying survival needs is a moral good - but why, what is that claim grounded in?
Common sense, it is self evident. For example, the body requires nourishment, it is good to satisfy that need. And we have other needs besides basic biological needs, e.g., the need for knowledge.
Is surviving inherently/objectively morally good, in all cases, if so why? Is killing always objectively wrong? Does it include all living things (bacteria, carrots, ants, cows, dogs, chimps) ?
Prescriptive judgments are based on our natural needs but not all needs are equivalent. Common sense and practical judgment will have to be applied to produce an entire set of prescriptive judgments that will address the societal complications that can arise. This is not the sort of simplistic good/bad, black/white, deontological system of morality that Kant proposed.
Is surviving inherently/objectively morally good, in all cases, if so why?
Give me an example of an instance in which it would be morally wrong to survive?
Peter Holmes: Please give an example of a prescriptive truth under your preferred theory. You seem convinced there are such things
.

I just gave one to Gertie....
Please give an example of a real 'good' and an apparent 'good', and we'll see if you're equivocating on the meaning of 'good'.
I did that in my previous post - I quoted a few examples from Mortimer Adler (and he describes Aristotle's concept of prescriptive truth succinctly in that interview).
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Peter Holmes
Posts: 562
Joined: July 19th, 2017, 8:20 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Peter Holmes »

Felix

We may be talking past each other. I think a 'truth' is nothing more than a true factual assertion, true because it correctly asserts (describes) a feature of reality, given the way we use those words or other signs, and true even if no one believes or even knows it. Such assertions are objective - independent of judgement, belief or opinion. And we call true factual assertions 'facts'. Do you agree with this definition of a 'truth'?

If you do, I'm asking what a 'prescriptive' truth is. If it's just a judgement, such as 'it's morally good to meet everyone's survival needs', that isn't a factual assertion, and it has no truth value. So if that's what a so-called prescriptive truth is, the idea is incoherent, as I said earlier.

Please correct me if I'm still not grasping the idea. I've gone through your and Gertie's exchanges, and I can't see anything else that's supposedly a prescriptive truth.
Karpel Tunnel
Posts: 948
Joined: February 16th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Karpel Tunnel »

Felix wrote: July 17th, 2018, 8:09 pm tions that can arise. This is not the sort of simplistic good/bad, black/white, deontological system of morality that Kant proposed.
Is surviving inherently/objectively morally good, in all cases, if so why?
Give me an example of an instance in which it would be morally wrong to survive?
If you are a Nazi - or it this is not a category that works for you pick one that meets an abstract criterion such as 'you hold beliefs that you will put into action which will cause harm, death and oppression to innocent people.'

If you are a member of a species that will go on to colonize space and destroy other more peaceful wiser civilizations. If you are a pedophile who cannot control acting out your urges.

You are in unbearable pain caused by a moral disease.



Survinval may be good for you, the individual. in the sense that you prefer it at the least.
However your conintued existence as an individual may lead to net bad/evil

Survival of your species may be good for your species. But what if your species is destructive and its continued existence leads to the elimination of better species?

Your own survival may not even be good for you in some circumstances.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 3117
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Felix »

To Peter Holmes: My exposition was no doubt unclear. Mortimer Adler gives a detailed explanation of the difference between descriptive and prescriptive truths on this web-page:

http://selfeducatedamerican.com/2015/01 ... scriptive/

It starts with the paragraph about half-way down the page that begins with:

"Skepticism with regard to truth reared its head in antiquity. Confronted with it, the ancients came up with its refutation. Not so with regard to goodness. Skepticism about value judgments — about the validity of our attribution of goodness to objects and about the truth of any statement that contains the words “ought” or “ought not” — begins in the modern world. Without having been confronted with that brand of skepticism, the ancients nevertheless provided us with clues enabling us to separate that aspect of the good that has the objectivity of truth from that aspect that is entirely subjective and relative to the individual."

Karpel: I could pick apart each of your examples but I will just say that they do not meet the necessary criteria of prescriptive truths, which are based on right desire and common needs, not on subjective self-interest.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021