Switzerland's minarets

[lifegazer]

[Alun]

[Belinda]

I veer from Alun to Lifegazer, to and fro. I am puzzled I think because I meet Muslims in the park when I am out walking my dog, or at the supermarket, the chemists shop, the veterinary surgeon, the dentist. All of these people, apart from native-village superstitions against dogs, seem as normal as any ordinary atheist, agnostic or Christian.I would be very surprised if any of these ordinary people wanted to bomb the supermarket where we all shop for the enjoyable necessities of daily life.

I know of course that there are paranoid, fearful Muslims who do want to bomb other people, but my impression is they are in a minority, here in the UK and in Islamic countries. It's only an impression, and therefore no use to the police.

In short, there is a difference between militaristic Islam and more secular, educated Islam. The Qur'an is to be interpreted from the perspective of history ( Muhammad as a man), not eternity, and some authority or other here in the UK is trying to supply only imans who are sufficiently western educated to keep their flocks within the law.

The symbols of what is in effect orthodox Islam such as dress and architecture are adhered to by the Muslims in this English town according to how educated they are. I have never seen a Muslim dentist in Muslim attire, but frequently I see women pharmacists in hijabs.The symbols themselves , they are becoming subtly in tune with western values, girls such as pharmacists or boutique assistants who have the money to spend on them may wear awfully pretty hijabs in fashionable textile and colour. New arrivals particularly women from poorer Eastern Europe are still in village clothing that is too flimsy to keep them warm in English winters.

In view of the prevailing peaceful and cooperative behaviour of the great majority of Muslims in Britain, it would be a tactical error to suppress their expressions of their traditions,despite these traditions being mixed up with a) terrorism and b) political repression.

Islamophobia is a creeping menace because it holds back the secularisation of Muslims.
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Socialist

[lifegazer]

[Juice]

We see here the effects of over conflating an issue. As I have stated a minaret is not a religious commandment found in the Koran, just a modern tradition and building decoration. The problem could be easily rectified by building a steeple like structure and putting a man inside it instead of a bell.

Instead we see references to American "segregationism", (no mention of South African apartheid), nazism, discrimination. Instead of entreating Swiss Muslims to take a step back to realize that being human means the ability to take the good with the bad, roll with the punches and be good neighbors by being tolerant neighbors themselves by respecting the other culture in which they freely chose to live among.

Once again this is not an instance where a people are being discriminated against, segregated or enslaved, it is just a building.

I will be the first to donate to the construction of a collapsible minaret. We have the technology to make peaceful solutions and if the problem is in the construction of a building then I say we put our heads together to come up with building solutions rather than creating another form of identity crisis.

It's identity crisis time, social justice team to the rescue!!!! This is nothing a couple of smart engineers and architects can't solve, just as if any person needed aid, doctors would do their best to come up with a medical solution so to can engineers come up with a construction solution.
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When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis

Fight the illusion!

[Simon says...]

It is a frustrating issue, because its one of those questions that involves this following issue...To what extent must an immigrating culture assimilate itself into the culture of the place its immigrating?...

People often hate and fear immigrating cultures because they often bring with them, new aesthetic ideas, for example when us Brits got curry. These ideas change the general aesthetic of a country, as such, many swiss feel afraid that this Islamic architexture is the first step to a cultural conquest, an Islamifying of swiss identity, and frankly many swiss want to keep their national identity in tact thank you very much.

I think this is a somewhat paranoid view however, and that until Islamic ideologies start messing around with swiss law or politics, its totally harmless.

[lifegazer]

[Billy]

Islam is peace. Europe means war.

[Simon says...]

[Belinda]

#34
Neither do I, Lifegazer, want my country to be a theocracy, and Islam is the only basis for theocracy that exists today.I guess that very few Britons want Britain to be a theocracy and the few that do are mostly Muslims.So the problem is not do we want Muslim rule or not, the problem is how to keep Britain secular in the face of political religion.

There is an element of hope that the more Muslims become accustomed to western culture the more they become aculturised. The police, who are concerned with keeping the peace,seem to be trying too hard to respect foreign customs even when they are obviously illegal, such as happened when Tulay was murdered by her father, How many opportunities did the police have to save her? Was it 17, or 11?
Although I favour a soft approach to making over ethnic minorities into Britons I draw the line at allowing women and girls to be victims of the soft approach. To be fair, Tulay's murder was unIslamic, but I have personally listened to a Muslim spokesman in the market place proclaim that it was right that a Nigerian woman be stoned for adultery.

Can Saudi Arabia be assessed for its style of regime in the same way as Pakistan, or Indonesia? I wonder if the Saudi princes are genuinely religious or if they cynically use Islam for repression and nothing else.
As for Iran, President Ahmadinejad is more hard line than the 87 year old Ayatollah who has just died and who had opposed Mr. Ahmadinejad.There is a lot of good in Islam, as I expect you would agree. China is not Islamic, and China's human rights are poor.Russia is not Islamic, and Russia's regime seems to be failing to control crime, or incursions into neighbouring countries such as Chechnya.
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Socialist

[lifegazer]

My first serious girlfriend's second-best friend was a muslim with Pakistani roots. I'd known her for about a year and thought that she was the epitome of 'niceness', when circumstances led to the most shocking conversation I have ever had with anyone: she spent about an hour coolly rationalising the justification of civilian deaths in the interest of Islamic growth and victory (she was justifying the murder of innocent civilians, including kids). I was absolutely stunned, primarily because of the prior judgements I had made about her (take note Simon).
Of course, this doesn't mean that all muslims are like her. But man, some things stand-out in your life, and for me, that was one of them.

I'm actually a theist, though not religious. I actually abhor the materialistic attitude of the West. But at least it's tolerant and has a 'live and let live' attitude, in general. What I abhor about Islamic states, is that their religion governs the politics and destroys freedoms. So, which do I prefer: a society that lets me be what I can be, or a society that doesn't? Hint, the cigar-winning answer is option 1.

[Alun]

[Juice]

I too am a fan of Joe McCarthy who, thankfully, is getting a better perspective into mainstream objectivism of late, since we see the outcome of a lax attitude with this current communist administration.

I had a similar experience, lifegazer, with a Muslim business associate who was talking about peace and how everyone should get along until it came to Jews who he felt should be wiped off the face of the planet, every man, woman and child. My best friend is Muslim and we have agreed not to even discuss Israel so we don't damage our friendship.

I also agree that the west should not allow Islam too much influence since it is internally, brutally fractional, radical and if given the chance will not only become theocratic but also male dominated totalitarian. Luckily Muslim woman in the west still have the protections of rational laws to protect them against Islamic sexism.

The Swiss are doing the right thing in standing up to undue and unnecessary Islamic pressure in light of the possibility that the problem may be solvable by my previous suggestions.
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When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis

Fight the illusion!

[pjkeeley]

This thread has produced some suprising responses I must say. I was not surprised that the ban on minarets would be defended of course, but I am certainly surprised that anyone on a philosophy forum would advocate making thought a crime. The argument that those who subscribe to a particular view should be afforded less rights than those who don't, based on the supposed danger certain views pose to stable government, is literally undemocratic. Democracy is not simply mob rule. It is predicated on freedom of thought. If we aren't free to disagree then we aren't free, and whatever form of government we are left with might well be stable, but it won't be democratic.

Let's be clear: if there is evidence to suggest that anyone, whether they be Muslim, Communist, Nazi or even politically neutral, plans to carry out acts of violence or illegally disrupt the workings of government then that person and those involved lose certain rights in order that authorities may investigate and prevent such acts from taking place. Not all rights; obviously rights to procedural justice remain. However, it is reasonable to defend the denial of certain rights in such cases because there is no right to plot a conspiracy against government or fellow citizens. This is entirely different from the notion that anyone can have their rights revoked simply for holding a particular opinion or subscribing to a particular ideology or religion. Even if the stated aims of an organization are subversive, denying the right to belong to such an organization or generally hold a subversive view is reminiscent of the measures employed by fascist government. Fascists justify such measures in the name of protecting the stability of government, which to them is more important than freedom or rights. Disagreement, which threatens stability, is not allowed.

[Juice]

See PJ, I believe you are conflating the issue. Putting a decoration on a building is not a right, which means that the current controversy is contrived and escalated by Muslim propagandist which means that they have an agenda that in recent history has proven to be detrimental coming from Islamic extremist. Where else is the violence coming from?

You are saying that a law is broken, but a legal Constitutional public vote was taken on the issue and a simple democratic majority won.

The fact is that Switzerland is not a fascist state but one which openly supports and recognizes a religion as a state religion, like it or not. That has been and is the choice of the Swiss people and who is anyone to tell the Swiss how they should be governed as long as they are a peaceful people, which they are. This is not about thought policing but about a sovereign nation which has the right to defend its Constitution and has decided according to its Constitution to put limits not on another religion but on a building decoration.

Personally I give the Swiss credit for standing up for themselves, their Constitution and their right to foremost encourage their religion which is a religion of peace, which I would also do for Muslims if I wasn't so distrustful of their motives given their propensity for radicalism and violence even against their own woman and children, through honor killings.

Philosophically we should first define a right, a privilege and a duty by which I believe a building decoration is a privilege and not a right or a duty.

I do not believe in democracy. I believe in liberty, and fair and equal justice, and a limited government which only serves to keep its people free from force. It is the democratic rule that does not allow the Muslims to build a minaret in Switzerland.
_________________
When everyone looks to better their own future then the future will be better for everyone.

An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason.
C. S. Lewis

Fight the illusion!