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Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Groktruth

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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#106  PostDecember 19th, 2011, 9:50 pm

Typist wrote:
Groktruth wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/11/arts/so-god-s-really-in-the-details.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm


Howdy Grok, thanks for the link, yes that's interesting.

As I guess you know, I find this topic fascinating. The religious attempting to prove their faith with reason. Reasonists using faith to come to their conclusions, without realizing it. It's quite the circus, isn't it?


Don't forget the spiritual, with their dependence on evidence!

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Gadfly

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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#107  PostDecember 19th, 2011, 11:09 pm

Is “faith” synonymous with “self-delusion”?

To my mind, the answer is obvious at once that the two words are not synonymous. Nonetheless, I do think that there is something of philosophical interest that the OP points to, and perhaps the question does require some analysis to make my point and to make clear what there is of interest in the OP.

There are two senses of the word “synonymy”. The first is the strict logical sense, in that both words can be freely substituted in sentences without affecting the truth value and the sense that most competent language speakers will freely and symmetrically interchange them in most cases because the two sentences would mean the same thing. I will call them logical synonymy and ordinary synonymy respectively. I realize that I some people may object to the condition of symmetry that I impose and I agree that it may be too stringent as a common definition. Nonetheless, I don’t see how we can avoid getting bogged down in issues of vagueness without it.

I think it is clear that the sense of the word “self-delusion” that can be considered synonymous, prima fascia, with the word “faith, can only be that a person willfully believes a false proposition, and in this case is synonymous, both ordinarily and logically with “self deception.” A person who willfully creates a delusion in himself, in the pathological sense, is a little hard to imagine, and, if it is possible, would not resemble faith. I submit that a person who is self deceived, if it is possible, can be described as self-deluded, but a deluded person, in the pathological sense, would not be described as self-deceived. It is possible that someone could try and claim that faith is delusional, but he would not be able to establish this by simply appealing to the meanings of words. Many delusional people have elaborate reasons for their delusional beliefs and as such do not have faith in their delusions. Many people with faith, if not most people with faith, are clearly not delusional. Still, there may be a case for faith being a form a self deception. But first let’s look at the word “faith.” “Faith” can mean simply confidence in something. So, if the OP is correct, the two following sentences would mean the same thing:
1. Jerry had faith that his child would do well in school.
2. Jerry was deceiving himself that his child would do well in school.
It is quite clear that the previous sentences do not mean the same thing or could be interchanged in different contexts.
So, logically and ordinarily the words “faith” and “self-deception” are not synonymous.

I strongly suspect that the person who first asked this question was inspired by the paper by Rey titled, Meta-atheism… In that paper Rey argued that a person who professed a belief in god, with some qualifications, was in fact self-deceived. I would argue that, in this case, the question distorts Rey’s suspicion, in that professing a belief in god when compared to the individual’s actions suggested that the person did not in fact, believe what was professed. This, I think, is a different case than professing to have faith in a proposition that is demonstrably false.

A person who disregards evidence and willfully believes the opposite will continue to behave as if the professed proposition is true. Rey’s observation is that people who profess to believe in god do not act as if they do. Are these cases different or merely two sides of the same coin? I suspect that, for the purpose we are considering, they are two different cases, and it would be helpful if we concentrated on the specific case of someone professing a belief that does not influence their behavior. If the cases turn out to be different then so much the better, but, even if they are two sides of the same coin, concentrating on the side that most closely resembles what we are interested in should help to keep the discussion on point.

It is for this reason that I find the examples of a woman disregarding the infidelity of her husband and the patient denying the cancer to be inappropriate. Both are behaving consistently with the truth of their professed belief. A religious person, on the other hand, professes a belief in god and yet behaves inconsistently with that belief.
Religious belief in the west is more akin to a woman taking good prenatal care then bearing a child while continuing to profess her virginity. Ironically, Christians seem to be more successful at emulating the Madonna rather than Christ.
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Fanman

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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#108  PostDecember 20th, 2011, 6:53 am

Groktruth wrote,

"Sorry, I have lost sight of where to get your book. Would you repost it?"

Hi, my book is available at lulu - self publishing online. Its called Truth's Rhetoric - A Philosophical Approach to Life and God.

If you decide to get a copy, I hope you enjoy reading it and I think it would be great to discuss on this site.
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Xris

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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#109  PostDecember 20th, 2011, 10:30 am

Typist wrote:
Xris wrote:Sorry that is just excusing your inability to answer simple questions.


Are your questions about god(s) based on reason?

If yes, please demonstrate that human reason and logic is binding on all of reality.

Before you do that, please tell us how big reality actually is.

If we don't even know what reality actually is, how can we know that reason is an adequate and appropriate tool for evaluating all of reality?

Isn't any conclusion that reason would be capable of analyzing gods also an act of faith?

Reason? Strange word to use.I am asking for a simple answer to a simple question. There is little reason to question the concept of god but there is a description. If a christian claims authority through scriptures , there is motivation. If we abide by your reasoning and consider reality as a mystery then nothing can be debated.
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#110  PostDecember 20th, 2011, 10:41 am

Xris wrote: If we abide by your reasoning and consider reality as a mystery then nothing can be debated.


All of reality is not a mystery.

As example, we have tons of very well documented evidence that reason is the appropriate tool for designing bridges. Everybody agrees on this, and nobody wants to cross a bridge built using religion or faith.

The question of God is an entirely different matter, as now we are considering what is or isn't at the heart of all reality. There is no evidence that reason is the appropriate or adequate tool for a question of this scale. It might be, or maybe not, nobody has a clue.

God and religion can still be debated, but reason requires us to be clear that everybody involved in the debate is arguing from a position of faith.

This isn't a problem for the religious, as they generally already claim faith as their foundation.

If the non-religious wish to challenge religion on the basis of reason, they first have to demonstrate that human reason is binding on all of reality, a concept which can't be defined in any meaningful way, as we have no clue what "all of reality" actually includes.
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Xris

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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#111  PostDecember 20th, 2011, 11:40 am

Typist wrote:
Xris wrote: If we abide by your reasoning and consider reality as a mystery then nothing can be debated.


All of reality is not a mystery.

As example, we have tons of very well documented evidence that reason is the appropriate tool for designing bridges. Everybody agrees on this, and nobody wants to cross a bridge built using religion or faith.

The question of God is an entirely different matter, as now we are considering what is or isn't at the heart of all reality. There is no evidence that reason is the appropriate or adequate tool for a question of this scale. It might be, or maybe not, nobody has a clue.

God and religion can still be debated, but reason requires us to be clear that everybody involved in the debate is arguing from a position of faith.

This isn't a problem for the religious, as they generally already claim faith as their foundation.

If the non-religious wish to challenge religion on the basis of reason, they first have to demonstrate that human reason is binding on all of reality, a concept which can't be defined in any meaningful way, as we have no clue what "all of reality" actually includes.

Certain bridges defy logical engineering but we still walk over them. Religion is not faith. Religion depends on logical or even illogical reasoning. I can reason with a believer if he or she abides by logic. I use logical reasoning to oppose religion not the concept of god. God without description is beyond reason.
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Groktruth

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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#112  PostDecember 20th, 2011, 2:32 pm

Xris,

I am enjoying this discussion, but I have lost sight of your unanswered question. Could you restate it?

Thanks.
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Xris

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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#113  PostDecember 20th, 2011, 3:19 pm

Groktruth wrote:Xris,

I am enjoying this discussion, but I have lost sight of your unanswered question. Could you restate it?

Thanks.

One at a time or several?
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#114  PostDecember 20th, 2011, 6:38 pm

Scott, your question should have been entitled "Is faith self-delusion?"

To ask whether the terms "faith" and and "self-delusion" are synonymous is a purely terminological question whose answer is an obvious "no." "Trust in things that one has not verified or cannot verify" does not *mean* the same thing as "willfully adhering to a delusion." The issue that you seem to be raising is whether these terms *refer* to the same thing in reality, just as "Barack Obama" and "The President of the USA" can *refer* to the same entity without *meaning* the same thing.

So, is faith self-delusion? In my opinion, faith is self-delusion when it is maintained in the face of conclusive evidence against its object. Both of your examples illustrate this kind of self-delusion. So does biblical literalism.

However, neither of your examples illustrates another kind of faith, namely the decision to believe something on the basis of insufficient data. Psychotherapist Sheldon Kopp once observed that all of our important decisions are made on the basis of insufficient data. On the basis of insufficient data, I believe all sorts of things. I don't calculate the probability that some drunk won't hit me on the freeway; I just believe I'll survive my commute!

I don't believe in God. I can recite the usual methodological grounds for doubting his existence. But inasmuch as God is conceived of as an utterly transcendent, invisible being who chooses to hide himself and asks his believers to trust in him on faith, I'm not sure what could count as conclusive evidence against the existence of God. Consequently, I consider theism to be mistaken, not delusional.

--Jim G.
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#115  PostDecember 20th, 2011, 7:21 pm

Imho, theism and atheism are different flavors of the same thing.

Theism proposes that holy books are qualified to speak to issues of infinite scale (what lies at the heart of all reality etc) without providing any convincing evidence of this ability.

Atheism proposes that reason is qualified to speak to issues of infinite scale (what lies at the heart of all reality etc) without providing any convincing evidence of this ability.

Both theists and atheists believe in their chosen authority on the basis of faith. Theists typically realize they are using faith as their method, while atheists typically don't realize this.

That is, generally speaking, atheists are typically deeper in to self delusion. And I too am deep in to self delusion if I think atheist readers are going to buy this very unpopular theory. Hey, there's enough self delusion to go around for everybody, and I want my fair share. :D
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#116  PostDecember 20th, 2011, 8:34 pm

Xris,

One at a time. I'm getting old. :)

G.
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#117  PostDecember 20th, 2011, 8:58 pm

Hello Typist.

Are you trying for the most unpopular poster of the year? :lol:
I may be called an atheist or a agnostic, I am not quite sure because originally they mean the same, without god.
There is something to be said for you statement regarding the atheist working on a level of belief when they take it to the extreme. But there are many of us who leave the door slightly open for some deity like entity.
Some of us are humble enough to realize our and humanity's limitation and know there may be questions we might never get an answer to.
But I do not absolutely need to know these ultimate issues for my wellbeing.
By not believing in a God of any kind I am free from trying to find out which particular one I am supposed to listen to.
Because for those who say that God exist have the further question as to which one or should they start out from square one.
So by going from being a theist to atheism I have simplified my life.

Regards, John.
We experience today through the lens of all our yesterdays
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#118  PostDecember 20th, 2011, 9:09 pm

Hi there!

Are you trying for the most unpopular poster of the year? :lol:


I am so trying, and predict I will succeed, as I have special talents in this area. :D

I may be called an atheist or a agnostic, I am not quite sure because originally they mean the same, without god.


Not quite sure is an excellent position, imho. Oh crap! Now you're going to like me and spoil the whole plan. :D

There is something to be said for you statement regarding the atheist working on a level of belief when they take it to the extreme.


I'm not really talking about extremes. All I'm saying is that it requires faith to use reason to analyze issues on the scale of the god proposal, as there is no evidence that human reason is capable of such a thing.

So by going from being a theist to atheism I have simplified my life.


Ok, whatever works for you is a good plan. I'm not arguing against atheism, just pointing out it is a faith based endeavor, just as theism is. It's entirely each person's business which flavor of faith they prefer.
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#119  PostDecember 20th, 2011, 10:23 pm

Hello Typist.

I have no option but to agree with you.
As William James has said in his book "The meaning of truth", The observer observing a reality, forms a truth of that reality that is satisfactory to the observer, in other words a belief,however that does not make that reality truth, just the belief.
And as the truth about a God or the non existence of God can not be based on provable facts, it has to remain a belief.
At least until we find out otherwize. 8)
We experience today through the lens of all our yesterdays
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Re: Is faith synonymous with self-delusion?

Post Number:#120  PostDecember 21st, 2011, 1:34 am

Typist wrote:Atheism proposes that reason is qualified to speak to issues of infinite scale (what lies at the heart of all reality etc) without providing any convincing evidence of this ability.

Both theists and atheists believe in their chosen authority on the basis of faith. Theists typically realize they are using faith as their method, while atheists typically don't realize this.



First, you are mistaken as to what atheism is. Atheism is simply a denial that god exists (full stop), Many nihilists as well as others deny god's existence on existential, visceral, or experiential grounds. An atheist need not reify reason. This is a common mischaracterization by theist's who simply can't wrap their mind around the notion that other people see the world differently or can't fully appreciate the consequences of their superstition. They assume that everyone else is a secret believer or just as superstitious as they are. It is a mistake, plain and simple.

Second, "faith" as I noted in my previous post has several senses. Religious faith is a different faith than the faith one has in the reliability of a bridge or an airplane. Religious faith is faith that can't be swayed by experience (remember the story of Job?) while faith in the truth of a scientific theory can be altered -- is altered -- by experience. And it does no good to take a step back and say well yes, that person has religious faith in the scientific method itself. This won't wash because the scientific method over hundreds of years has yielded countless concrete results that lend confidence (another sense of the word "faith") in the viability of the scientific method. No such verification is available for articles of faith, say for example the Nicene creed.

You are mixing apples and oranges.
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