Does God Exist?

Hi dparrot.

Going by what you just stated it would be foolish to give you the website of the UN regarding children dying of hunger, because they would state that most of these deaths occurred in Africa.
Now most likely you have not been in Africa, so just because someone says that there is a place called Africa does not prove to you that it exists.

Regards, John.

That is my point John, to many people take second hand knowledge as truth instead of investigating things for themselves. Many people do this same thing with various religions and God. If there really are starving children why are they starving? who's fault is it? God's? or their parents? or the government they live under? Is it just because their ancestors settled in a place with no food? Blaming God seems to me like an easy way of not blaming ourselves for not helping them.

I'm going to say what Ive always "believed" even though there is no fact to base it on. I feel that if a person absolutely believes God exist, then for that person , God does exist. the God might not be able to do the magical mythical things that are commonly linked to God, and or Jesus, or whatever you God of choice is, but to the true "believer" God exist. Just like to the heroin addict, the snakes crawling all over the floor exist.

Kurt Gödel showed that provability is a weaker notion than truth, no matter what axiomatic system in involved.
According to his theory some things are only valid if they cant be proven.

That is my point John, to many people take second hand knowledge as truth instead of investigating things for themselves. Many people do this same thing with various religions and God. If there really are starving children why are they starving? who's fault is it? God's? or their parents? or the government they live under? Is it just because their ancestors settled in a place with no food? Blaming God seems to me like an easy way of not blaming ourselves for not helping them.

So your argument amounts to not believing in things you read. So why in hells name do you believe in god? Have you encountered him personally , face to face? What value has the bible with your opinion?

As for your opinion on children dying in Africa and god. What can I say? I once watched a child drowning in a canal near me and thankfully I did not take gods view. What if I had said, where are his parents? Its his fault being in the water. What would you have thought of me if I had stood back and did nothing? That was one child. You tell me god has that thought every second of the day, every time a child dies. You are not doing a very good job describing this perfect god Paro.

That is my point John, to many people take second hand knowledge as truth instead of investigating things for themselves. Many people do this same thing with various religions and God. If there really are starving children why are they starving? who's fault is it? God's? or their parents? or the government they live under? Is it just because their ancestors settled in a place with no food? Blaming God seems to me like an easy way of not blaming ourselves for not helping them.

So your argument amounts to not believing in things you read. So why in hells name do you believe in god? Have you encountered him personally , face to face? What value has the bible with your opinion?

I believe in God because it makes sense to me. It would not be wise to believe everything you read but with further personal investigation you can come to your own conclusions on the matter. The value of the Bible is the same as the value of a map if your lost in the wilderness. It is possible to find your way out without it but with a map it is much easier.

As for your opinion on children dying in Africa and god. What can I say? I once watched a child drowning in a canal near me and thankfully I did not take gods view. What if I had said, where are his parents? Its his fault being in the water. What would you have thought of me if I had stood back and did nothing? That was one child. You tell me god has that thought every second of the day, every time a child dies. You are not doing a very good job describing this perfect god Paro.

If you would have let that child die and then blamed God for his death, it would be the same thing you are doing with those kids in Africa. I'm not trying to explain my perfect God because I can't even explain perfection, much less God. I'm trying to explain that people blame God because they do not want to blame themselves. Also an agnostic blaming God seems strange.

So reading a book written by man about 3000 years ago makes more sense than reading a recent report on children dying in Africa? Bit strange Paro.

I did not turn my back on that child Paro but god does it a million times every day. What purpose does this constant dying of young children achieve in gods mind? Why is he prolonging their pain? I speak from an agnostic perspective questioning the description of god you are defending. The concept of god can not be questioned but if any think they have discovered god they need to defend the description.

So reading a book written by man about 3000 years ago makes more sense than reading a recent report on children dying in Africa? Bit strange Paro.

I did not turn my back on that child Paro but god does it a million times every day. What purpose does this constant dying of young children achieve in gods mind? Why is he prolonging their pain? I speak from an agnostic perspective questioning the description of god you are defending. The concept of god can not be questioned but if any think they have discovered god they need to defend the description.

Your still doing it, blaming God for young children dying. We need to blame ourselves for letting this happen.

-- Updated Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:17 am to add the following --

All the horrible things that happen while we are alive is not God's fault, but are own fault for not doing something about it.

So reading a book written by man about 3000 years ago makes more sense than reading a recent report on children dying in Africa? Bit strange Paro.

I did not turn my back on that child Paro but god does it a million times every day. What purpose does this constant dying of young children achieve in gods mind? Why is he prolonging their pain? I speak from an agnostic perspective questioning the description of god you are defending. The concept of god can not be questioned but if any think they have discovered god they need to defend the description.

Your still doing it, blaming God for young children dying. We need to blame ourselves for letting this happen.

-- Updated Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:17 am to add the following --

All the horrible things that happen while we are alive is not God's fault, but are own fault for not doing something about it.

It's not the point Paro. We are incapable of the task but if god exists he could or should have the compassion. Would you with all the power you believe god has turn your back constantly? You still have not answered my questions.

So reading a book written by man about 3000 years ago makes more sense than reading a recent report on children dying in Africa? Bit strange Paro.

I did not turn my back on that child Paro but god does it a million times every day. What purpose does this constant dying of young children achieve in gods mind? Why is he prolonging their pain? I speak from an agnostic perspective questioning the description of god you are defending. The concept of god can not be questioned but if any think they have discovered god they need to defend the description.

Your still doing it, blaming God for young children dying. We need to blame ourselves for letting this happen.

-- Updated Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:17 am to add the following --

All the horrible things that happen while we are alive is not God's fault, but are own fault for not doing something about it.

It's not the point Paro. We are incapable of the task but if god exists he could or should have the compassion. Would you with all the power you believe god has turn your back constantly? You still have not answered my questions.

That was the point I wanted to make, "stop blaming God and start blaming ourselves". We are not incapable of the task we can help, there is a saying "can't never could do nothing" and if you want to believe you can't help people who are starving then I guess you can't. To answer your question I don't help even with the power I have even though I should do more. How do you think God has turned his back when he has put all of us "capable people" here that can take care of our nieghbors?

So reading a book written by man about 3000 years ago makes more sense than reading a recent report on children dying in Africa? Bit strange Paro.

I did not turn my back on that child Paro but god does it a million times every day. What purpose does this constant dying of young children achieve in gods mind? Why is he prolonging their pain? I speak from an agnostic perspective questioning the description of god you are defending. The concept of god can not be questioned but if any think they have discovered god they need to defend the description.

Your still doing it, blaming God for young children dying. We need to blame ourselves for letting this happen.

-- Updated Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:17 am to add the following --

All the horrible things that happen while we are alive is not God's fault, but are own fault for not doing something about it.

It's not the point Paro. We are incapable of the task but if god exists he could or should have the compassion. Would you with all the power you believe god has turn your back constantly? You still have not answered my questions.

That was the point I wanted to make, "stop blaming God and start blaming ourselves". We are not incapable of the task we can help, there is a saying "can't never could do nothing" and if you want to believe you can't help people who are starving then I guess you can't. To answer your question I don't help even with the power I have even though I should do more. How do you think God has turned his back when he has put all of us "capable people" here that can take care of our nieghbors?

I am not god paro. If I had gods capacity I would not let children suffer no matter how man acts. There is no excuse to this constant suffering. If you believe god created us then he created this damned sad world. You can not blame man for his inability to stop droughts, water pollution, floods. When do you expect him to end children's suffering? If his creation has failed, he has failed. The buck stops at the top.

So reading a book written by man about 3000 years ago makes more sense than reading a recent report on children dying in Africa? Bit strange Paro.

I did not turn my back on that child Paro but god does it a million times every day. What purpose does this constant dying of young children achieve in gods mind? Why is he prolonging their pain? I speak from an agnostic perspective questioning the description of god you are defending. The concept of god can not be questioned but if any think they have discovered god they need to defend the description.

Your still doing it, blaming God for young children dying. We need to blame ourselves for letting this happen.

-- Updated Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:17 am to add the following --

All the horrible things that happen while we are alive is not God's fault, but are own fault for not doing something about it.

It's not the point Paro. We are incapable of the task but if god exists he could or should have the compassion. Would you with all the power you believe god has turn your back constantly? You still have not answered my questions.

That was the point I wanted to make, "stop blaming God and start blaming ourselves". We are not incapable of the task we can help, there is a saying "can't never could do nothing" and if you want to believe you can't help people who are starving then I guess you can't. To answer your question I don't help even with the power I have even though I should do more. How do you think God has turned his back when he has put all of us "capable people" here that can take care of our nieghbors?

I am not god paro. If I had gods capacity I would not let children suffer no matter how man acts. There is no excuse to this constant suffering. If you believe god created us then he created this damned sad world. You can not blame man for his inability to stop droughts, water pollution, floods. When do you expect him to end children's suffering? If his creation has failed, he has failed. The buck stops at the top.

You're excuse for constant suffering is "it's God's fault." My excuse is "it's our fault." If everyone helped everyone else then there would not be children suffering.

I think the problem, Parro, is that your describing a god that doesnt exist. God created us and protects us from evil. Since creating us and poping in once to say hi, he hasn't done much. I have to agree with Xris, at what point do you say, ''okay...where's God?''. Is he going to appear at the end of humanity and make things right only then after we've destroyed ourselves? It sounds to me like a desperate hope rather than faith.

I agree with dparrot. God has given us all of the tools, abilities and methods with which to help one-another. The fact is that some people actually do try to help those who are suffering in this world. God has a history of working through human beings, so perhaps those people who decide to help people who are suffering, are doing so because God causes them to? I know that when I do a good deed, I have God (Jesus) mind. I believe that the holy spirit has that power to influence and guide us.

If Fanman agrees to the logic submitted by Parro, it would appear that you both preach a contradictory double standard in your definition of God. God is to be praised everytime a theist "believes" they have a witnessed some type of miralce, God is held accountable for the good/love/compassion observed in this world; yet when these qualities are absent and pain/suffering/anger is observed it is man who is to blame. Either God is not as great as his followers make him out to be or he doesn't exist and his followers adhere to selective logic and reasoning in their attempts to justify his existence.