Exactly what is FREE WILL?

Hi Xris,

Xris wrote:

What do think Misty's comment indicated. More than one god?

I think that the reason God refers to himself as "us" in the book of Genesis, is because God is a trinity of three beings in one - the father, the son, and the holy spirit; not because there is more than one God.

The trinity was an invention after Christs death. If you can recall the old testament was before Christ and before the invention of the holy ghost. Not one mention of the holy ghost in the old testament.

Xris, what you say here doesn't alter God's constitution, it all comes from the same book. In the new testament Jesus states that he and the father are one, in the book of Genesis, God refers to himself as us - there is consistency. And where there is consistency, there is usually truth.

So god created us in his schizophrenic self. So lets admit the holy ghost as one with god. Does that infer a different entity?

Xris, I believe that God, the holy spirit and Jesus exist symbiotically.

Genesis, there was no jesus. I will ask again is the holy ghost a separate entity. The trinity was invented by roman catholic scholars Fanman. There is no direct statement in the bible telling us there is a trinity. It was an assumption gathered from certain phrases mentioned in the new testament. Christians make the mistake of refering to the gods of the old testament to enforce the trinity but how can you have a trinity before christs birth? There is constant effort by theologians to counter the countless contradictions in the bible. You in the last few days have encountered the various beliefs and contradictions. Is there free will, does the bible state as much? If it does not indicate free will, have we free will? Did god make us perfect? None of you believers are certain of anything except your determination to keep the faith. Eric nailed it. There is no sense in faith or the bible only disjointed desires and contradictions.

Before Christ's birth he was with God. We learn this in the first chapter of John's gospel. "In the beginning there was the word, the word was with God and the word was God." If that is not a symbiotic relationship then I don't know what is.

You have lost me Fanman. So Christ was not born of women he already existed. He gave us his only begotten son, key word here Fanman,begotten. Surely you find it just a bit confusing Fanman? How is the, "god is the word and the word is god" indicating a trilogy.

French: Contre toute la superstition moderne d'une « libération », il faut dire qu'on ne libère pas les formes, on ne libère pas les figures. On les enchaîne au contraire, et la seule façon de les libérer est de les enchaîner, c'est-à-dire de trouver leur enchaînement, le fil qui les engendre et les lie, qui les enchaîne l'une à l'autre par la douceur.

English (personal translation): Against all the modern superstition of a "liberation", it must be said that one does not liberate forms, one does not liberate figures. One "connects" them on the contrary, and the only way to liberate them is by "chaining them together" [enchaîner], that is to say, to find their connection, the link that brings them forth and softly chains them together.

Jean Baudrillard, in Illusion/désillusion esthétique.
Google > Baudrillard+Illusion/désillusion+esthétique (can't post links yet, have to make 10 posts first)

-- Updated March 14th, 2012, 2:39 pm to add the following --

Is it really you who decides, if it is in fact your brain and your body which make all the decisions?

Genesis 1:26,27

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth: and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him: MALE and FEMALE created he them.

Verse 27 indicates to me that there was a female in the OUR and US of verse 26. Is the Holy Spirit female? I think creation is a mirror image of God. The use of God instead of Gods in 27 is like using the word man but it means many. The
trinity is someones interpretation. I have no problem thinking God has other family members under the God title.

Genesis 1:26,27

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth: and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him: MALE and FEMALE created he them.

Verse 27 indicates to me that there was a female in the OUR and US of verse 26. Is the Holy Spirit female? I think creation is a mirror image of God. The use of God instead of Gods in 27 is like using the word man but it means many. The
trinity is someones interpretation. I have no problem thinking God has other family members under the God title.

We get back to the same old arguments if we take the bible as the complete truth. Is god or gods perfect? In what way are we in his image? Cruel ,uncaring benevolent , malevolent,imperfect, sinful. Everything that man is, god's are also? What is the holy ghost or spirit, has it a separate identity like Christ? The faithful juggle with the contradiction like confused children. As one contradiction is excused another pops up. One minute his caring and benevolent, the next his nasty cruel even evil. He makes constant appearances in biblical times but fails to turn up even when millions of his chosen tribe are massacred. When is the illogical nature of faith going to become clear to those who are capable of understanding these anomalies?

French: Contre toute la superstition moderne d'une « libération », il faut dire qu'on ne libère pas les formes, on ne libère pas les figures. On les enchaîne au contraire, et la seule façon de les libérer est de les enchaîner, c'est-à-dire de trouver leur enchaînement, le fil qui les engendre et les lie, qui les enchaîne l'une à l'autre par la douceur.

English (personal translation): Against all the modern superstition of a "liberation", it must be said that one does not liberate forms, one does not liberate figures. One "connects" them on the contrary, and the only way to liberate them is by "chaining them together" [enchaîner], that is to say, to find their connection, the link that brings them forth and softly chains them together.

Jean Baudrillard, in Illusion/désillusion esthétique.
Google > Baudrillard+Illusion/désillusion+esthétique (can't post links yet, have to make 10 posts first)

-- Updated March 14th, 2012, 2:39 pm to add the following --

Is it really you who decides, if it is in fact your brain and your body which make all the decisions?

But what is the dis-connection between Jean Baudrillard's postmodern rearranging theory, and Free Will belief? I don't deny that there may be a dis-connection, but you have lost me.

I am entirely persuaded by recent neuroscience that shows how the unconscious 'mind' is that which makes decisions which seem on superficial acquaintance to be willed decisions.

But what is the dis-connection between Jean Baudrillard's postmodern rearranging theory, and Free Will belief? I don't deny that there may be a dis-connection, but you have lost me.

Yeah, it might be a little off-topic, sorry.

The quote just says that freedom is not and end in itself but a means, to happiness.

Edit: I wanted to delete the post but apparently that's not possible.

So, yeah, nevermind.

Genesis 1:26,27

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth: and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him: MALE and FEMALE created he them.

Verse 27 indicates to me that there was a female in the OUR and US of verse 26. Is the Holy Spirit female? I think creation is a mirror image of God. The use of God instead of Gods in 27 is like using the word man but it means many. The
trinity is someones interpretation. I have no problem thinking God has other family members under the God title.

This is just not true, there are facts and evidence which prove beyond reasonable doubt that man, as a species, gradually evolved in a fashion which best accompanied the necessity of survival. To beleive there was a devine order to not just control but create life has absoloutely not a shread of evidence to support the claim. It is a psycological pre-disposition of man to attatch sentient agents to the acts of nature because man fails to understand the science behind the act of nature itself.

As for the free will arguemnt, in the face of reality I believe yes free will is painfuly obvious, I am aware that nueroscience has recently discovered that the thoughts that influence our choices/decisions are determined at a sub-conscious level before we act on them, however I believe that simple observations such as our ability to improve and change our social behaviour and advance our species both mentally and technologically demonstrates the will to free our minds. The fact we are capable of confronting natural urges and desires, the fact we are moral agents capable of selfless acts which we are aware could have a negative effect on our own well being, suggests that although decisions or choices are determined at a sub-concious level we are more than capable of consciously deciding to change our minds.
Even if all further decisions were determind sub-consciously all this does is challenge us to re-define the level at which the free will emerges. Even if free will is determinted as a consequence of causility, it still appears apparent to me that the nature or psychology of the determining factors have to be a result of individual thought patterns which are influenced by experience. So the argument for free will now reduces back to what is consciousness, all concepts are esentially established sub-consciously, the conscious awareness is how we experience the effects of the brain, conciousness becomes the reality of the sub-conscious mind. The free will is in my opinion another experience of neurological activity.

Fanman, You have every right to your beliefs and to express them. You have a right to your Faith.
I grew up in a religious household. I do not agree with all I was taught and tend to ? everything. The bible is literature and each person has a right to ? and ponder it's meaning. I do not agree with the age old traditional teachings. I think from reading Genesis creation that mankind is the creation of Godkind. It makes no sense that a being is solo. Mankind made in the image of Godkind with limitations. In Gods likness as in having life and mind, then became Like God when mankind was enlightened with the knowledge of good and evil. (Godkind already knew good and evil) That is what the bible says. I do not think the bible is here to condemn mankind but to enlighten him. Not agreeing with traditional teachings does not make me without faith. I just have a mind of my own and have more faith in my own mind than in the minds of those before me deciding what they think scripture means. (being like God does not mean being God)
As far as the bible being inspired of God ---- God created everything then he inspired everything.

-- Updated Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:15 am to add the following --

Thinking Critical,

My comments on the bible as literature and what I think it means is separate from secular argument. But let me ask
you - if you have free will in the secular arena can you keep another person from killing you? NO - so you do not have
free will even without the bible.

-- Updated Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:25 am to add the following --

Xris, you said -
When is the illogical nature of faith going to become clear to those who are capable of understanding these anomalies?


You sneak in a compliment but elude you are smarter then the rest of us. You live by faith everyday of your life. Your
questions are no better or worse then other humans that have and will continue to ask. Live and let live.

-- Updated Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:28 am to add the following --

Mankind has limited Choice. Free will does not have limitations.

Misty the faithful do not express that will to live and let live. The church expresses itself constantly and tries to dictate its dogma on us all. So please do not accuse me of being superior when the faithful preach to me constantly. Just look at the RC church and its opposition to same sex marriage.

Misty,

I understand that you do not agree with the old age “traditional” teachings (from the old testament?). The rules have changed since the old ways, laws and practices. All we need do now, is believe in Jesus to be “in-tune” with what God wants of us. I believe that the conduct and knowledge borne from believing in Jesus, not only enlightens us, but also causes us to be a reflection of him, which can only be good for society - if people aspire to a high moral standard / ideal.
Those old ways and laws are no longer imposed upon us or expected by religious society, save the 10 commandments (which I believe are still essential).

I'm not questioning your faith, nor do I understand why you think that I would? We (believers) can worship God in our own unique ways - that we revere him is what is important. With the advent of Christ, religion (Christianity) became a lot more liberal. You are well entitled to have faith in your own mind, and you are also entitled to have your own interpretion of the scriptures. I have written a short book and several essays which are largely my own personal interpretation of the scriptures, much like your "Godkind" interpretation. I mean, why should we believe without question? It is in our nature to ask questions of the systems that we believe in.

With regards to free-will, I think that we have free-will to make the choices which are available to us. However, I understand that in the context which you are applying it, we do not have free-will because there are limits placed upon what we can choose. That said we do function effectively as choice making beings.

Fanman,

Mmmmmm --- the fallibility of communication -- sometimes very hard to make ourselves understood and to understand
others --- another reason not to believe everything one hears or reads or thinks --- In a previous post I thought others were hard on you and wanted you to know you have every right to believe whatever you think is right. The rest of my post was my attempt to explain what I read the Genesis story to mean. I never thought you questioned my faith. By old age traditional beliefs I include the New Testament. There are many (I used to be one of them) that interpret the bible to say that Jesus died for ALL and God has given us this free gift. Then they say this free gift only costs you your belief or you go to hell. I do not think this is what the bible teaches. I also do not believe the bible teaches there is a literal hell where those who - sin, which means to miss the mark - will be tortured and burn forever. Godkind created angelkind who also have problems with good and evil. Mankind was created and is privy to good and evil. How would one know what good was without the contrast of evil? Do you let others read your short book and essays? Your post about the trinity does not reflect that Genesis reveals Godkind.


Xris, I did not accuse you of being superior because I do not think your are. You made a statement that others, though
capable just don't understand your point of view. You have every right to your point of view. If the RC or any other
church or religion is constantly preaching to you then you are letting them. I ignore them and read for myself. There
are many preachers of many bible interpretations that steal and take people for a ride straight to their bank. I could be
wrong but you are angry with believers and throw out the baby with the bath water. You seem angry with God for your
best friends death. My first child died - I was angry and still am on occasion. I still seek him. Humans either want to
seek God or be God or deny God. Either way God is still in the picture.

Misty I am not angry with god. How can I be angry with something I do not believe exists. I am angry with religion and the brainwashing it perseus on any young or vulnerable mind. I sat with a young man at a coffee bar with obvious mental problems and he told me how his priest had told him about heaven hell and the consequences. This sounds terrible but religion has no compunctions about doing the same to our young vulnerable minds. We have all been exposed to their attempts. Why should it be allowed? Would you be prepared to send your child to an Islamic school? We all know how easily children can be influenced and the long lasting effects it can have. Our free will is seriously tested under the influence of religious education.

Xris, You say we have free will then deny it in the vulnerable. That is why we don't have free will but choice with constraints. Shame on that priest for not telling that poor man how he is loved without debt of any kind. He is seeking
and he will find.

Who would you give the guns to to eradicate it?? What did you say to this mentally ill man?? You are right God does not exist. HE IS. He is every heartbeat that has ever beat. He is your heartbeat. When a heart stops beating that life goes back to the one who gave it, safe again in Gods complete care.

Xris, You say we have free will then deny it in the vulnerable. That is why we don't have free will but choice with constraints. Shame on that priest for not telling that poor man how he is loved without debt of any kind. He is seeking
and he will find.

Who would you give the guns to to eradicate it?? What did you say to this mentally ill man?? You are right God does not exist. HE IS. He is every heartbeat that has ever beat. He is your heartbeat. When a heart stops beating that life goes back to the one who gave it, safe again in Gods complete care.

Why should we inflict our beliefs on any one. I had to sadly tell him that I did not believe in hell and if there was a god he would surely love him.