Exactly what is FREE WILL?

Seek ye the truth, for the truth shall set you free of the delusion that you were not being coerced.

"BenMcLean"]Free will is not a subjective feeling, it is an objective metaphysical truth claim that can be either true or false.

By "serious philosophers on both sides of the question" I was thinking of great figures in the history of philosophy.

Funny, i am having difficulty coming up with a clear example of someone really advocating hard determinism unequivocally. I know there's tons of them but my mind's gone blank at the moment.

BenMcLean,

I love your last line ---- It sounds like something snatched your free will!!!


Eston,

From where does the human survival drive come?

-- Updated Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:00 am to add the following --

Seahunt,

The words free will are not in the bible like the words divine and perfect. If mankind had free will it would exist
if religions did or not -- since free will does not exist for humans it is confused with mankind having confined
choice religious or secular. Mankind cannot control his own life/death cycle. If free will existed I for one would
will that I not die. Choice lives in our world as limitation not freedom. True freedom would not be threatened
by other outside choice makers.

Misty, I see you are still asserting free will does not exist, how ever after reading through your previous posts I see nothing that supports your claim. You gave me an example of someone taking my life, which I explained was not a valid argument, I also put forward some other essential points which need to be dealt with, until then I see no reason to believe nor consider that free will does not exist.

Misty, Survival drive (in my view) is the original metaphor. It derives from two cosmic particles discovering affinity and liking it. This moment of pleasure (I call it the aha! response) led to the seeking of other connections--ie other parti-cles with which it/they could combine. This seeking out of affinities (the action of metaphor) led to the evolution (another metaphor) of gasses, matter, mass, etcetera. Survival drive is a consequence of the accidental discovery of affinities, is the source of consciousness, and led ultimately to the creation of the metaphor that is self concept. From that moment the world has never been the same, for from that we can trace the origin of language, the invention of counting and writing, of religons, history, science, and literature--all based on the desire to escape the inevitable coils of our mortality, an awareness born of self concept.

This is relevant to the free-will issue in the sense that self concept can be constructed consciously, and a positively constructed sense of self empowers one to act assertively, with confidence and an increased likelihood of positive outcomes. The force that is survival drive can thus be controlled and directed to our own best self interest. We need not be the vassals of a primitive force interested only in physical survival through the urge to procreate or feed.

To the extent that we can be responsible for a conscious construction of our sense of self, to that extent can we exercise free will.

Just asking- can a will which is conditioned "to the extent" by other than myself be called free will ?

Hello Thinking Critical,

You lose your so called 'free will' (which you don't have -and of course you lose choice) if someone murders you. Of course you would fight back to save your life if you could.

But the issue is if someone wants you (meaning anyone) dead regardless of you thinking you have 'free will' (complete
control over oneself) my guess is you will end up dead.

Please try to grasp it - choice is free only in the sense that one can choose from limited choices given him. 'Free will' is a myth. If a store is giving away 'free' candy it should have no strings attached. If mankind's WILL is FREE then there are
no strings attached. Free will lives in our fantasy to make us think we can control our lives. Mankind can co-operate with
nature and each other to make life better but it is always choices with the constrains of limitations and consequences and of course is never free.

-- Updated Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:40 am to add the following --

Hello Kameshwar,

r[quote="Kameshwar"]Just asking- can a will which is conditioned "to the extent" by other than myself be called free will ?


BINGO!!

Sorry Misty but IMO your mistaking Free Will for unlimitled physical ability, when we speak of free will we aren't talking about the inability to walk through walls or turn invisible, free will is the ability to make any choice where it's onlly restrictions are bound by the laws of physics which our material bodies must abide by. I can attempt to walk through a wall, i can imagine it and think about it, yet unfortunetly my physical body has restrictions. So again your example of murder is not relevant. In my opinion the majority of humans have a will to live, this will comes with no strings attached what so ever; even when being mudrdered one will still have the will to live. If the final result is their death it simply proves that phyical force holds priority over mental force (free will), this is nothing new.

So of course you loose your free will once your dead just as you loose all mental capacity; unless of course you took a dualism approach and argued for the literal (not abstract) seperation of body and mind. If free will didn't exist and the mind was simply an organ which was subject to the consequence of causility, one would then have to ask how many options or choices does the mind have to choose from? The number would be astronomical. The only limits on free will from a mental or psycological point of veiw would depend on the imagination.....how many possibllities of anything can your mind think of? That in my opinion is free will. Free will is the source of mental determination for each and every individual, again it has absoloutely NOTHING to do with physical limitations, they are two seperate issues.

Hi Thinking Critical,

I will think more on your view but I think you miss my point. I cannot make it more clear. My views are gathered
from my own life experiences, reading and mulling things over. For me, my view is correct, and I will honor that
your view works for you. Thank God we have been given choice however limited both physically and mentally - how
could mankind bear more?!! But free will , to me, is in a realm called God.

-- Updated Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:28 am to add the following --

Eston,

For me, self concept comes from all that one is exposed to, good - bad- indifferent - and is or is not warranted by a
persons mental health, maturity, conceptualized and limited choice. A persons 'will' is learned and changes with new
experiences and dislike/or like for past experiences. There is nothing free about it. But the mind can learn new ways to cop
cope and experience life. All minds do not even have this choice in life. Thought processes are conditioned by what we
have learned and imagination is part of that learning. Even if a mind (mankind's mind) held all known and unknown knowledge he would still be constrained and limited by his humanity, his life/death cycle.

Free will is a human concept so it must be flawed in the true sense but then if you have no values or preconceived ideas you would not be able to exert your will at all. I have no time or reason to argue from a religous perspective. I believe the concept of god being false can only hamper our understanding of free will. With limited ability and highly tainted beliefs we exert our will freely. Perfection is not the question we should be asking and what it appears we are debating. We are mere mortals attempting to make the best possible choices. It may be not perfect but it is a human expression. The question should be, what exactly is mans freedom to exert his will?

As we must give permission to another to hurt our feelings, so do we elect to what extent other individuals can affect our concept of self. I personally believe that the development of a strong sense of self is a life-time pursuit, and at this point in my life I am the sole adjudicator of what affects my concept of self. That does not mean that I am impervious to pain, it just means that I now know how to deal with it. "To the extent" that persons allow life events and the attitudes of other to influence their perception of self to that extent they are not self-liberated and not free.

Quibbles are welcomed and appreciated!

Eston,

I agree self concept is a maturing process and so very hard to reach.

As we must give permission to another to hurt our feelings, so do we elect to what extent other individuals can affect our concept of self. I personally believe that the development of a strong sense of self is a life-time pursuit, and at this point in my life I am the sole adjudicator of what affects my concept of self. That does not mean that I am impervious to pain, it just means that I now know how to deal with it. "To the extent" that persons allow life events and the attitudes of other to influence their perception of self to that extent they are not self-liberated and not free.

Quibbles are welcomed and appreciated!

Thanks, Robert. This is good news. Being told I am ugly, I now know how to deal with that pain and say, "You should see Robert!", and laugh it off.


If I've inferred you somewhat correctly, then the essence of free will becomes embedded in how accomplished is one's abilities to deal with necessities imposed on awareness of self and awareness of surroundings reacting to self. Something felt is identified; when choice has been stymied in a game of chance by an ace-up-the-sleeve, loaded dice, or insider information where manipulation with intent is normally countered by "fair play," OR an evaluation of appearance has caused the opposite sensation of a dopamine jolt, THEN learning and flagging the events for future similar occurrences can reveal the truth in the future and enable me to make a freer choice than in the past.

Hello Peter Kinnon,

Interesting post. I plan on reading on the lick you suggested. Thanks, Misty




Anyone read 'The Unselfish Green Gene' ? I would like to know opinions of others on it. Misty

-- Updated Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:36 pm to add the following --

link sorry

At first glance, one may assume that "Free will" is the sum total of those variables that both enhance one's ability to effect an action- and those that detract from that ability. Strictly speaking however, the word "will" connotes a step PRIOR to that of action. In the progression from thought (ideation) to action (change), "Will" is the summation of those thought processes that are directed towards an effect but "will" does not by itself imply or ensure that an action has happened, or that it shall happen Thus, from a purely semantic view, all thinking creatures may possess unlimited "free will". For example, the lion may freely WILL that his prey should not detect the predator's stealthy advance. but that "will" (regardless of how sincere it is intended ) is not always associated with a successful hunt! The human experience reflects a similar discordance between will and effect. The desperate sufferer may sincerely will for relief of that suffering, only to continue to languish in pain. A more pertinent term (and one that carries far more room for philosophical debate) is the phrase "freedom of choice". Perhaps this deserves further inquisition???

Free will is a human concept so it must be flawed in the true sense but then if you have no values or preconceived ideas you would not be able to exert your will at all.

This is a great quote Xris, why are so many human concepts flawed?