The Lord of the Rings
- Kingkool
- Posts: 306
- Joined: February 1st, 2012, 11:22 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Alexander the Great
Re: The Lord of the Rings
- Weight
- Posts: 33
- Joined: October 25th, 2011, 4:23 am
Re: The Lord of the Rings
-
- Premium Member
- Posts: 13820
- Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
- Location: UK
Re: The Lord of the Rings
- Kingkool
- Posts: 306
- Joined: February 1st, 2012, 11:22 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Alexander the Great
Re: The Lord of the Rings
-
- Premium Member
- Posts: 13820
- Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
- Location: UK
Re: The Lord of the Rings
- Kingkool
- Posts: 306
- Joined: February 1st, 2012, 11:22 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Alexander the Great
Re: The Lord of the Rings
You are correct. But I was talking about Sauron, not any mere person. Gandalf said, "the ring is trying to get back to it's master. Would it ever not want a master?Belinda wrote:Isn't the One Ring to rule them all an independent psychological force by definition? If some human is taken over by the Ring that human is not free from the will of the Ring which is to rule them all, all the other rings of power.
-
- Premium Member
- Posts: 13820
- Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
- Location: UK
Re: The Lord of the Rings
- Kingkool
- Posts: 306
- Joined: February 1st, 2012, 11:22 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Alexander the Great
Re: The Lord of the Rings
Interesting. I guess I've always thought of the ring as being seperate.Belinda wrote:I think that Tolkien may have introduced the Sauron person so as to make the nature of evil more applicable to real people, since Sauron is a person. The One Ring is a sort of transportable, psychological, version of Sauron.
-
- Posts: 650
- Joined: January 21st, 2011, 7:19 pm
Re: The Lord of the Rings
If Tolkein was drawing on Catholic theology, as well as the Nordic mythology, then the God hidden in the background of the Lord of the Rings is big on delegated authority, The Ring was clearly a tool, created with a longing for it's master, just as theologically, we have an inner longing to get back to God. But, just as Frodo was able to get the ring to a place of destruction, so the devil is able to get us to Hell, in spite of our "good intentions." The evil parallel of good. But, the overarching God, that Frodo could and did call on in necessity (compare to our OMG! Pathetic!), was there to make Frodo succeed while the evil beings carrying us to Hell have to count on us not calling on that God. The ring drew the black riders, but could not call them, without getting Frodo to put it on. But, Frodo could call on Elbereth.Kingkool wrote:Interesting. I guess I've always thought of the ring as being seperate.Belinda wrote:I think that Tolkien may have introduced the Sauron person so as to make the nature of evil more applicable to real people, since Sauron is a person. The One Ring is a sort of transportable, psychological, version of Sauron.
-
- Posts: 1104
- Joined: March 18th, 2011, 4:57 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Anaximander
Re: The Lord of the Rings
No intention of nit-picking here but, since Tolkien was indeed Roman Catholic, it might be prudent to point out that Elbereth is more like the Virgin Mary than God. The mother of Jesus is especially revered in Catholicism, especially in Mediterranean and Latin American countries, and many Catholics direct their prayers to her rather than to God the Father. Similarly, Elbereth was not God; she was a Vala, which is sort of equivalent to an archangel. She was in fact the Queen of the Valar (as Mary is often called "Queen of the Angels") and the most beloved of all the Valar by the elves, and they called to her in their songs more than any other Vala. In Middle Earth, God (Eru, a.k.a. Illuvatar) was always more remote, was almost never addressed directly, and never appeared in any form visible to elves or humans.But, the overarching God, that Frodo could and did call on in necessity (compare to our OMG! Pathetic!), was there to make Frodo succeed while the evil beings carrying us to Hell have to count on us not calling on that God. The ring drew the black riders, but could not call them, without getting Frodo to put it on. But, Frodo could call on Elbereth.
-
- Posts: 650
- Joined: January 21st, 2011, 7:19 pm
Re: The Lord of the Rings
Thank you! Of course, now that you point it out, clearly the case, which not being Catholic myself, I never before saw.A Poster He or I wrote:No intention of nit-picking here but, since Tolkien was indeed Roman Catholic, it might be prudent to point out that Elbereth is more like the Virgin Mary than God. The mother of Jesus is especially revered in Catholicism, especially in Mediterranean and Latin American countries, and many Catholics direct their prayers to her rather than to God the Father. Similarly, Elbereth was not God; she was a Vala, which is sort of equivalent to an archangel. She was in fact the Queen of the Valar (as Mary is often called "Queen of the Angels") and the most beloved of all the Valar by the elves, and they called to her in their songs more than any other Vala. In Middle Earth, God (Eru, a.k.a. Illuvatar) was always more remote, was almost never addressed directly, and never appeared in any form visible to elves or humans.But, the overarching God, that Frodo could and did call on in necessity (compare to our OMG! Pathetic!), was there to make Frodo succeed while the evil beings carrying us to Hell have to count on us not calling on that God. The ring drew the black riders, but could not call them, without getting Frodo to put it on. But, Frodo could call on Elbereth.
-
- Premium Member
- Posts: 13820
- Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
- Location: UK
Re: The Lord of the Rings
Groktruth has separated Sauron and The Ring into master and tool, while I see them as equal though different versions of the same evil. Therefore Groktruth's idea is Platonic, because in Grok's view Sauron is The Ring's superior and master. I think that Grok is right as to Tolkien's intentions as a Catholic. However it could be more useful for modern people to view The Ring as transportable evil, rather than as tool of master evil.The Ring was clearly a tool, created with a longing for it's master,
To A Poster, thanks for the information about Virgin Mary and Elbereth. Poster's explanation of Elbereth and Mariolatry makes me feel partial to Mariolatry.If JC is consubstantial with God, then it's necessary to have someone more human like Mary to intercede with the Almighty, as the more Earthly Mary protects the idea of the Almighty against idolatry.
-
- Posts: 1104
- Joined: March 18th, 2011, 4:57 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Anaximander
Re: The Lord of the Rings
Until recently, the Catholic Church historically supported "Mary cults" wherever they cropped up around the world (Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Lourdes, etc.), which surprises me given that traditional Judeo-Christianity has no regard for the ancient principle of the Sacred Feminine. I'm not clear on why the Vatican is so resistant to the newest cult that has erupted in the former Yugoslav Republic.
-
- Premium Member
- Posts: 13820
- Joined: July 10th, 2008, 7:02 pm
- Location: UK
Re: The Lord of the Rings
Perhaps the RCC has decided that the kids were not reliable . I think that the RCC is very careful about establishing any miracles. It may not be Mariolatry that the RCC is against in this instance, but rather idolatry. I suppose that Mariolatry can sink into idolatry. If so the RCC is right because idolatry in its widest sense is bad.The apophatic tradition seems to avoid the danger of idolatry.( I don't mean simply statues, relics etc.)
-
- Posts: 1104
- Joined: March 18th, 2011, 4:57 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Anaximander
Re: The Lord of the Rings
I know that the RCC has dedicated investigators for debunking claims of miracles, so I suppose they have a duty here. It just seems so bass-ackwards that something as psychologically understandable as a cult of hope, around an established iconic spriritual figure, arising in a war-torn region, should be harrassed and discredited, while the previous Pope made a hobby of beatifying more people than any Pope in history, and he doesn't have to answer to anybody.
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023