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Atlas Shrugged - The movie?

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Scott

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Atlas Shrugged - The movie?

Post Number:#1  PostDecember 19th, 2011, 10:28 pm

I just today discovered that there is now a movie adaptation of Ayn Rand's famous and hotly debated book Atlas Shrugged. The book was even book of the month on these forums a while back.

It seems the movie was released in April 2011, but is only available on DVD here.

Have any of you seen the movie? If so, what did you think? How well does it represent the book? Have you heard of it before or am I not the only one feeling out of the loop?
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Re: Atlas Shrugged - The movie?

Post Number:#2  PostDecember 21st, 2011, 7:27 pm

Scott,

I saw the movie while it was still in theatres, and I posted my comments on it in the Atlas Shrugged Book-of-the-Month thread. Since I was a Randian Objectivist from about age 19 through 22, I read Atlas Shrugged and just about everything else by Rand, including every one of her newsletters. Decades have past, and my beliefs nowadays are almost 180 degrees opposed to Rand's, but I was still very interested to see how a movie handled the material.

The movie is extremely disappointing for being so utterly flat, lifeless, and perfunctory. Much of the problem lies with the script which simply assumes that the audience either (1) has Objectivist sympathies, or at least (2) can see for themselves the superiority of unregulated capitalism without needing any demonstration. Rest assured, the movie will not be making any converts out of non-believers.

The direction is also to blame, instilling no fire at all into its message. The 2 main characters, Dagney Taggart and Hank Rearden, instead of coming off as beleagered visionaries, come off as narrow-minded, self-serving cartoons facing an ongoing parade of cardboard bad-guys who rush through their lines without feeling, just so the audience knows that they want to regulate the good-guys to death, then they exit the stage.

Almost everyone of the "hallmark" scenes from the book is rushed, devoid of significance, or simply botched. The character of Francisco d'Anconia actually comes off as buffoonish in all his scenes--it is hard to believe the film makers could have allowed such a pivotal character to be so ineffective.

The movie also makes the mistake of setting the story in the year 2016, in the hope of making Rand's message contemporary. It backfires to some degree, since the movie's "excuse" for an America 4-years in the future relying on railways as its major transportation stretches plausability to the breaking point.

By the way, the movie is only Part 1, faithfully corresponding to only the first third of the novel. Parts 2 & 3 are still to be made.
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Re: Atlas Shrugged - The movie?

Post Number:#3  PostApril 6th, 2012, 12:37 pm

A Poster He or I wrote:Scott,

I saw the movie while it was still in theatres, and I posted my comments on it in the Atlas Shrugged Book-of-the-Month thread. Since I was a Randian Objectivist from about age 19 through 22, I read Atlas Shrugged and just about everything else by Rand, including every one of her newsletters. Decades have past, and my beliefs nowadays are almost 180 degrees opposed to Rand's, but I was still very interested to see how a movie handled the material.



What would you say were the main factors / influences for your change of beliefs?
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Re: Atlas Shrugged - The movie?

Post Number:#4  PostApril 6th, 2012, 3:27 pm

What would you say were the main factors / influences for your change of beliefs?

Rand began to fall apart for me as soon as I read The Romantic Manifesto, her views on aesthetics. After falling for her metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics "hook, line, and sinker", I suddenly found myself betrayed by her aesthetics--it was such obvious bullcrap. In an effort to figure out "what had gone wrong" I began working backwards through her works and everything unravelled as I went. I realized how naive her ethics is: a house-of-cards built upon the premise that a man of reason must by necessity be virtuous. Nonsense. I discovered her epistemology is easily demolished by the findings of the 2nd-generation cognitive sciences. Last to fall was her metaphysics which in retrospect is purely dogmatic and rather obviously upended by 20th century physics and again 2nd-generation cognitive science.
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Re: Atlas Shrugged - The movie?

Post Number:#5  PostApril 7th, 2012, 5:44 pm

The movie was not nearly as bad as all the critics said it was; I thought it actually was pretty good for what it was (a B movie with a small budget that attempted to cram 1/3 of the most epic novel of all time into 90 minutes).

That having been said, don't expect it to come close to reflecting the greatness of the novel.

-- Updated April 7th, 2012, 5:48 pm to add the following --

A Poster He or I wrote:
What would you say were the main factors / influences for your change of beliefs?

Rand began to fall apart for me as soon as I read The Romantic Manifesto, her views on aesthetics. After falling for her metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics "hook, line, and sinker", I suddenly found myself betrayed by her aesthetics--it was such obvious bullcrap. In an effort to figure out "what had gone wrong" I began working backwards through her works and everything unravelled as I went. I realized how naive her ethics is: a house-of-cards built upon the premise that a man of reason must by necessity be virtuous. Nonsense. I discovered her epistemology is easily demolished by the findings of the 2nd-generation cognitive sciences. Last to fall was her metaphysics which in retrospect is purely dogmatic and rather obviously upended by 20th century physics and again 2nd-generation cognitive science.


There are some aspects of her philosophy which are obsolete. The same could be said of Locke, Kant, Aristotle, Plato, Aquinas, and any number of other highly valuable philosophies. And her philosophy is still head and shoulders above so many of the modenr/post-modern philosophies which have been produced DOA (Dennet, Morin, Baudrillard, etc.).
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Re: Atlas Shrugged - The movie?

Post Number:#6  PostMay 8th, 2012, 3:23 pm

I discovered her epistemology is easily demolished by the findings of the 2nd-generation cognitive sciences. Last to fall was her metaphysics which in retrospect is purely dogmatic and rather obviously upended by 20th century physics and again 2nd-generation cognitive science.


Could you please give a specific example demonstrating how 2nd generation cognitive science destroys her epistemology.

I would also love to see how you believe her metaphysical believes are upended by two of the most deeply flawed sciences in the world today that being physics and again 2nd-generation cognitive science. I don't have is much problem with cognitive science as I do with contemporary physics. You make some broad statements that I would like to see backed up with some specific arguments.
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Re: Atlas Shrugged - The movie?

Post Number:#7  PostMay 8th, 2012, 3:52 pm

I had heard the movie was out, but had no inclination to see it at the time, and have none now. I doubt her tendency to have her characters indulge in endless, repetitive and hectoring lectures would translate well to film.
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Re: Atlas Shrugged - The movie?

Post Number:#8  PostMay 8th, 2012, 4:53 pm

I would also love to see how you believe her metaphysical believes are upended by two of the most deeply flawed sciences in the world today that being physics and again 2nd-generation cognitive science.


Even after decades I am still amazed how Rand believers and sympathizers are so consistent in turning any criticism into a disgraceful polemic. Unfortunately, Mmfiore, you give your hand away with your "most deeply flawed" remark, alerting me how you would not recognize my criticisms as having legitimate premises, so there is no point in wasting my time.
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Re: Atlas Shrugged - The movie?

Post Number:#9  PostMay 9th, 2012, 4:01 pm

Well I gave away nothing but you did misunderstand completely what I said. First of all I am not sure if I am going to defend her view point or not. I might have agreed with you but probably not. I guess we will never know. I just wanted to hear specifically what your complaints are then I was going to make up my mind. I think that perhaps you really don't have anything specific to say. It is a shame and I am especially disappointed as I always love to see people try and use QM to back their theories. I guess you were just not up for a spirited debate. Maybe next time.
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Re: Atlas Shrugged - The movie?

Post Number:#10  PostMay 9th, 2012, 10:08 pm

Mmfiore,

First let me say I apologize for targeting you as a Randroid: your lack of tact in your challenge seemed typical of what I am used to from that cult, so I made a knee-jerk judgement. Nevertheless, I don't see any reason to engage in debate because your remarks suggest that your view of 20th century physics undercuts the premises of any argument I can muster.

Recently, I devoted a long and involved effort on the Philosophy of Science forum to try to provide another forum member with a more accurate understanding of QM, granting him far more credit and patience than was deserved, in the hope of getting him to consider science beyond where his dogmatic allegiance to naive realism had put him. My effort was not only fruitless but used as fuel against me (and others) in a vile stream of fear-driven irrationality. Any debating I'll be doing on these forums in the future will be after I know my challenger is at least on the same starting page with me regarding basic premises.
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Re: Atlas Shrugged - The movie?

Post Number:#11  PostMay 10th, 2012, 8:51 am

Well sir I can completely sympathize with you in your troubles as it concerns your debate in the Philosophy of Science forum with an irate personality. I agree with you that there is no need for a vile stream of irrationality. This is kind of an amazing coincidence as I came here in the hopes of having more civil discussions than I was able to have on Science forum websites. I have experienced similar experience in the science forum that I had frequented for some time. I encountered a level of ire and angst unbecoming my idea of what I thought the average scientist type would muster. I experienced great amount of mean spirited commentary right off the bat. This is why I came here for a more civil discussion.

I invite you to participate in the discussion I started on this site called “Philosophical approach to a Theory of Everything” I must confess I am a realist so be aware of that. I welcome all commentary positive and negative. I appreciate a civil tone as you do. Perhaps you can make some good points that change my mind. So far I have not been able to find any evidence to convince me that I should not continue researching in the direction that I have chosen.
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Re: Atlas Shrugged - The movie?

Post Number:#12  PostMay 10th, 2012, 10:49 am

I will read your post in the Science Forum. I can promise you that any thoughts I have on it will be meant constructively, but while I am a materialist (of an odd sort) I am definitely no realist. So my remarks may not be of much value to you. Once again, two people have to be on the same page with their premises for constructive discussion. Otherwise they're just talking past each other.
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Re: Atlas Shrugged - The movie?

Post Number:#13  PostMay 10th, 2012, 3:55 pm

Agreed. I look forward to hearing any ideas that you may have on my topic of interest. What I am interested in is talking about the ideas, meanings and evidence. I am a truther and so I am primarily interested in Universal truths. My 2 areas of study have been in theoretical physics and spiritualism and the afterlife. I just want to know what is going on and why and get as many of the details as possible.
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Re: Atlas Shrugged - The movie?

Post Number:#14  PostMay 10th, 2012, 5:58 pm

Oh dear me. I am not going to prove an ideal reviewer, I'm afraid. I am a complete relativist and "Universal truth" is nothing to me but an oxymoron. Oh well, when I get home tonight, I'll tackle it anyway.

In fact, I'm starting to have a change of heart and might just post here after all why Rand's epistemology is at odds with 2nd-generation cognitive science...just to see how you assess the arguments from your realist position, purely out of curiosity. I'll leave metaphysics alone for now...I won't make any headway there against a realist.
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Re: Atlas Shrugged - The movie?

Post Number:#15  PostMay 12th, 2012, 2:42 pm

Hello all,

I have seen the movie! About fifteen years ago I dabbled in Rand’s works and considered myself to be ‘somewhat’ an objectivist. I would even say that one of her noted disciples, George Smith, played a very important role in my struggles over Christianity and my eventual departure from that faith. Yet, being a religion/philosophy major in college helped me to also see the many problems in Rand’s philosophy.


So, when I heard Atlas Shrugged came out on DVD, I quickly looked it up on my Netflix-and watched away. Unlike some reviews I’ve read above, I found the movie adaptation more or less fitting the general character of the novel. I recalled when I read Atlas Shrugged just how I found the characters almost cartoonish by design. The movie employed good actors and decent directing. However, I don’t think any amount of money could have salvaged this rather grossly unrealistic host of characters from the movie wasteland. The reason the movie fell dead off the screens in the theatres is because Rand’s novel itself represents a cluelessness about human nature. People can tolerate a fairly wide range of artistic license when a novel or movie wishes to convey or demonstrate some point or message. But when the characters are so wildly unrealistic, they lose any artistic effect with the audience.

The movie, as does the novel, goes off rail when in the diner a woman asks, “Who is John Galt?” Obviously, this, and other, Randian boilerplate utterances fill up the mouths of the other ‘good’ guys and motivates the lines of the main protagonists as well. The scenes involving John Galt are probably the most farfetched. Despite the fact that such a person would appear to be an utter lunatic to real high wealthy business types, the business types themselves DO things that would never be done. When John Galt convinces Ellis Wyatt to destroy his oil business and vanish into the inhospitable Colorado Rockies, we know that Rand’s mind was on some sort of permanent vacation from reality. The movie, like the novel, displays businessmen willing to give up on their life work, leave their homes, and abandon all for some sort of commerce paradise where free-will, self-interest, and a society of business genuises perfectly and wonderfully cohere! In the movie, like the novel, one finds that only the unscrupulous business types (like Jim Taggart) would make use of government policy in order to benefit –allying themselves with the evil altruists along the way. This is all just bad! You can’t salvage something this bad!


Greg Nyquist is quite right here: “But in real life, most of the things that happen in the movie version of Atlas Shrugged (as well as the book) would not happen at all. Rand's entire world rests on a false premise: the view that evil is stupid and incompetent, whereas good is enterprising and brilliant. The deck is stacked against Rand's villains from the very beginning, the final outcome decided well in advance.”


He continues, “Yet in the real world the Jim Taggarts and the Wesley Mouches are not so incompetent and pathetic (after all, as Whitaker Chambers noted, how could such pathetic incompetence become powerful enough to be feared and loathed in the first place?), nor are the Hank Reardens and the Dagny Taggerts so pure of heart. If you examine most of the great capitalists and entrepreneurs, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who did not attempt to curry favor with the government, whether it was for tariff protection or land subsidies or special contracts. Business people who have scruples about using government for their own advantage simply get out-competed by those lacking such scruples. The real world, in short, is a far messier, morally ambiguous place than we find it portrayed in the Atlas movie. The air of unreality, coupled with all the blatant propaganda, is likely what turned the movie-going public away from it.”


In other words, Rand’s philosophy is no more believable as a philosophy than it is as a novel or a movie. In fact, it is such poor philosophy that it sullied the fiction used to describe its message! One of the most difficult things to communicate to a libertarian, neo-conservative, or an Objectivist is that the leading enemies of capitalism are other capitalists! The bottom line in the world of business is always survival and expanding opportunities for further production and consumption at the best possible rates on hand and by whoever will lend that hand! The real life characters that fill this sort of economic role are typically not people that one would use to model a theory of applied ethics.


Thus, even the villains in the movie are unnatural Randian automatons. Nyquist brilliantly comments, “The best scenes in the movie are those involving the villians. At its most absurd, the left provides ripe targets for caricature and satire. But even here, the movie is only partially successful. Since none of these villains is more than a caricature, they can only be effective in small doses. If they were given as much screen time as the heroes, their lack of reality would become more noticeable, and their role as vehicles for propaganda would become increasingly annoying. The problem with propagandistic narratives is that they are way too condescending: they assume that their audience is too lazy or too stupid to accept a sermon without a story; but in their zeal to propagate the message, they prostitute both the story and the story's characters. Atlas Shrugged is all about the message. But even this message has problems. It's not so much wrong as it is way too simplistic. The world is not so easily divided between looters and producers. These functions are often inextricably mixed in the same person. Worse, the government is both the means by which looting is promoted and by which it is limited and regulated. Attempting to score points against Big Government and left-wing economic ideology with a simplistic narrative about looters verses producers is bound to convince no one not already on board. People tend to be skeptical of manipulative propaganda fiction; and it's difficult to believe that anyone skeptical of free enterprise will change their mind after viewing Atlas Shrugged: Part 1.”


Indeed, I was certainly not convinced. Unlike Nyquist, I am a ‘free enterprise’ skeptic and critic. My reason early on revolved around questions like ‘just how well did such pro-market capitalist economics and market ideology capture reality or worked to make a better world?’ After much reading and internal debating, I realized that just as my belief in Christianity was loosened from its chains, so, now, was my faith in market capitalism. I look around me in books, essays, further study, and even the arts to see a well-argued case for these ideas. Unfortunately, I have found ever greater reasons to further abstain. Atlas Shrugged the movie made more vivid the utter pretentions in Objectivism itself. It showed characters so wildly unrealistic and romanticized that it becomes obvious that one is not watching a well-done work of fiction. Rather, one is watching a preachy ideology of someone who sees things a bit too clearly—much like a zealous cleric who wants us to sell all that we have and come sit on top of the hill and wait for the return of the Lord! The movie, like the book, asks us to believe without giving us a world of characters we can first believe in or relate to in some way. It asks us to see the clear lines between those who create and those who destroy without ever addressing the reality that those who often create also destroy! In the end, the movie and its dogma makes too many demands that credulity isn’t just stretched thin, it has utterly disappeared. We are, therefore, asked to surrender our wits altogether or we’re condemned as unbelievers who have likely taken up shelter with the evil ‘givers.’


In the end, the movie, like the philosophy it was made to display, creates a world of false dichotomies. A world that we don’t in any way live in or can relate to. All we can do is appreciate the fact that one movie is down-hopefully not many more to go!

Eric D.
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