Post Number:#137 May 24th, 2012, 5:12 pm
Spectrum wrote:Windy34 wrote:You cannot know if your independent self lives after you die. So saying your independent self doesn't live after you die is just a opinion of yours since you cannot know one way or another.
There is no absolute certainty even for things that we 'know' while we are alive. As such, how much credibility can one expect from speculation of matters after death, of souls, heaven, 72 virgins, eternal life and the likes. If it accepted that one can speculate on anything just because one do not know what could happen after death, then anything goes. This is where the scam, snake oils, cons, lies, violence, intolerance, abuse creep into humanity along with the selfish psychological security blanket to the terrified self.
On the question of independent self after death, based on the empirical and rationaliy, I am 99% certain (based on philosophical rationality), the self do not live after physical death.
If you claim positively the self survives after death, and as a conventional standard, you will have to prove it.
If you want to go ahead and take your Pascal's wager on the soul existing after death, then go ahead, however, you have to make a provision that it is a necessary vital lie without empirical proofs and exercise of reasonable reason.
Where meditation works effectively, there is no need for vital lies to comfort the terror from he self-awareness one's inevtiable death and the yearning for immortality. Meditation (effective) is Carpe Diem rather than wasting energy worring and being anxious for a non-existence after life.
Post Number:#138 May 24th, 2012, 6:41 pm
Post Number:#139 May 25th, 2012, 12:05 am
Windy34 wrote:What proof do you have that the soul doesn't live after death?
Agnosticism makes more sense than atheism. How can you proof 99% that your claim is true? Where is your proof for your claim?
Meditation doesn't work. It is superstitious. There is no proof meditation works. There is no proof that people can tell themselves through meditation to be happy, and they will automatically be happy. There is no proof that you can move your neurons in your brain by thinking. You are using meditation as a security blanket for yourself. So if someone wants to use religion as a security blanket for themselves they should be allowed to because people who believe in meditation use a security blanket for themselves as well.
Post Number:#140 May 25th, 2012, 1:31 pm
Vojos wrote:Windy theres a clear distinction between the probability of the positive effects of meditation and the existence of a soul.
I can by induction make the assumption that the sun will rise tomorrow, based on my past experience and on the scientific laws underlying it's probability. It's a matter of probability, and that's why it makes more sense being an atheist than an agnostic or religious person. It makes more sense in the means of probability, and you're no exception, all your everyday conduct or ways of acting are based on these principles.
The soul or the reality of the consciousness. These are metaphysics. Speculations. When you're speculating in these terms you have no empirical foundation, and almost all the grounds for what humans believe are due to exactly that, empirical evidence or inductive knowledge. When you chose to place your faith in something which is completely speculative and groundless, it's just that; faith. And I'm not saying faith necessarily is a bad thing, people have their own individual experience of things, and place their beliefs thereafter, but you have to understand why people with no such experience chose a skeptical standpoint on the matter. For them it's groundless assertions just like the assertion: "the sun's is not going to rise tomorrow". Because it's contradicting to their inductive/probabilistic/empirical approach towards reality, life, and their everyday conduct in general. Then one might as well worry the sky's going to fall down tomorrow, you can't disprove it, the laws of nature might suddenly change for what we know, but it's unlikely, and I don't believe you go around worrying about that. -- Some might, but then again, that's going to be based on faith.
Meditation has hundreds of scientific research papers made by different neuro-scientists showing its potential impact on the human mind. There's empirical evidence for it, it's still much to uncover, but still. It's strongly indicating a visible impact. You can play the "you can't be sure-card" in so many circumstances it's not even an argument, it comes down to probability, and for me it seems kind of hypocritical when most of your beliefs and so on are based on probability, and to then use those almost non-existent decimals of probability weighing against something when it suits you is a cheap-shot the way I see it.
Acknowledge that your faith is a faith and that theres a clear distinction between that and the benefits of meditation which has much more evidence in favor of its actuality. One is from a neutral standpoint irrational, the other is rational, based on the existing evidence. I don't judge people having faith, there might be much more "between heaven and earth" than we know of, however our everyday life's based on pure inductive and empirical knowledge, so those beliefs and faiths has to belong to every individual, because there's as of now at least, nothing supporting those faiths except ones own personal experience and belief which in the end only can be self-convincing or self-assuring.
Post Number:#141 May 25th, 2012, 5:20 pm
Walker44444 wrote:Does meditation work?
...and if so how does it work? What does it do for you?
What are the most recommended forms of meditation?
How does it differ from mindfulness?
What would be the best form for someone not wanting to spend five years sitting on a mountain studying Buddhism?
Post Number:#142 June 17th, 2012, 12:47 am
Post Number:#143 July 13th, 2012, 5:27 pm
Bermudj wrote:I have never seriously tried meditation. I appreciate what it is attempting to achieve, to remain calm, relaxed, in peace, in harmony, in this life. As I suffered from very severe generalised anxiety disorder, to overcome this I simply secured the body. Basically I took the body to what it feared and gradually removed the fear in the body. It soon learned to remain calm and in peace in those situations. I took it to a point where having been conned by a bandit on the streets I was able to regain my goods. It got nasty he headbutted me, threw a glass of beer over me, but I remained calm in my demands for my goods and he returned them to me. I did find out that this bandit had been in prison for GBH.
Post Number:#144 July 14th, 2012, 1:06 am
A person being able to meditate doesn't make sense. You are always aware of something. A person cannot just shut their mind off. The concept just doesn't make any sense. You would always be aware of trying to shut your mind off. So if you told yourself to be calm and happy in a negative situtation you actually couldn't feel calm and happy in a negative situation. The brain works on flight or flight response. You could try to put on a mask and act calm like it didn't bother you that the guy threw his beer on you, but you would actually be mad as hell at him. It takes a lot of effort not to lose your cool, and say throw a glass of beer back at him.
Post Number:#145 July 14th, 2012, 1:45 am
Bermudj wrote:I have not read enough about meditation or tried it to be able to state categorically whether it makes sense or not. It seems to me that if meditation has been around for a long time, it must work, but like all, it needs constant practice to obtain the benefits of it.
As far as the anecdote goes. The brain does work on a flight or fight response, but you can retrain that so that it does not get the best out of you. In my particular case I have always been a very peaceful person who run away from confrontation. So gradually I have retrained the brain so that it does not automatically take the flight response which it used to do. So I confronted the situation and obtained my goods back. Actually after that I sat in a separate place and my hands were shaking terribly. I know that if I ever go through that again, I will regain the goods, and my hands will not be shaking terribly. And the same can be applied to the reverse, if in an individual the brain response is to immediately fight it can be retrained so as not to lose its cool.
Imagine this fellow and how his brain response is fight.
Post Number:#146 July 14th, 2012, 2:10 am
Spectrum wrote:...... Humans cannot and should not get rid of the instinctive primal neural circuits of the 'flight or flight' response, and beside it is very essential to facilitate survival. .......
Post Number:#147 July 14th, 2012, 2:33 am
Thanks, and from what you describe meditation techniques have evolved much. This instinctive primal neural circuits seems to be very different in all of us.
Post Number:#148 July 14th, 2012, 5:04 am
Spectrum wrote:The basic circuit of the flight and fight response is generic in all human beings as the digestive system, the reproductive, respiratory, and the likes. It is only the subsequent responses that follow that is different in all of us.
Post Number:#149 July 14th, 2012, 11:20 pm
I am not sure about this, because in my case this drove me to run away to a mountain, over 3,000 metres high. As I said I was an incredibly peaceful person who simply run away from the conflict. It was quite crazy how I run away from it all. One aspect is to stand back a little, another is to shoot up a 3,000 metres high mountain.
Post Number:#150 July 15th, 2012, 12:56 am
Spectrum wrote:.....In one perspective, meditation also enable one to 'run away' to avoid the accumulation of poisons from a natural flight or fight response, and also preventing a maximum surge and full fledge 'flight or fight' response. The difference is, instead of external physical solution, the meditator does all these solution and preventions within the brain and mind.
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