Why Atheism Cannot Be Logically Supported

"Why atheism cannot be logically supported " was the original post. Why is this of any importance? what does matter is that those who are atheists and those who differ - do not try and impose their beliefs on the other. The various belief systems are all liable to power hungry, political interest groups who may choose to inflict atrocities upon dissenting groups- no one group is immune. The ultimate expression of humanity is the ability to exude compassion to ALL life, a dignified acceptance ( not mere "tolerance") of others and the promotion of absolute freedom of self expression.

Did anyone ever see the film "Monty pythons life of Brian" the "Peoples Front of Judia" leaps to mind on this forum. Without direct experience you will always know nothing. Stop the talk and DO. Reach for the sword and strike. Only then will you know the true meaning of battle. Aircraft were built by men who longed to fly, not by those who only spoke of it. There is a knack to flying that is gained only through experience. Talk as much as you like about riding bikes but cornering one at a hundred miles an hour takes a different skill. We should all be seeing the obvious here. The answers lie within, in deeper experience that is. Can it not be more plain to your sight?

"Why atheism cannot be logically supported " was the original post. Why is this of any importance? what does matter is that those who are atheists and those who differ - do not try and impose their beliefs on the other. The various belief systems are all liable to power hungry, political interest groups who may choose to inflict atrocities upon dissenting groups- no one group is immune. The ultimate expression of humanity is the ability to exude compassion to ALL life, a dignified acceptance ( not mere "tolerance") of others and the promotion of absolute freedom of self expression.

Quite a few years ago there was a Broadway play called "Doubles" in which a trio of tennis players auditions a replacement for their fourth who has died. They ask the candidate what church he goes to and he replies that he is an atheist. "Yes, we all are, but what church do you go to?" is the response he gets. The line got a very big recognition laugh when I saw it. (Keir Dullea played the atheist and Austin Pendleton was among the others.)

As an atheist it has always puzzled me why believers are so distraught at the mere notion of atheism. When I have told people I don't believe, they have often wanted to argue or engage me in a reforming experience. Few believers could accept it without further comment. I think that comes from the notion that if atheism can be logically argued and one person believes the argument, it is a terrible challenge to belief in general. Edward Abbey, the radical environmentalist, expressed it this way:

"Fantastic doctrines (like Christianity or Islam or Marxism) require unanimity of belief. One dissenter casts doubt on the creed of millions. Thus the fear and hate; thus the torture chamber, the iron stake, the gallows, the labor camp, the psychiatric ward."

That's not very accepting of belief, but it sort of makes the point.

Anpu you are so right. I will now stop this self indulgent philosophy club for this morning and answer some Amnesty International Urgent Action emails instead which is my way of getting on to my bike.

"Why atheism cannot be logically supported " was the original post. Why is this of any importance? what does matter is that those who are atheists and those who differ - do not try and impose their beliefs on the other. The various belief systems are all liable to power hungry, political interest groups who may choose to inflict atrocities upon dissenting groups- no one group is immune. The ultimate expression of humanity is the ability to exude compassion to ALL life, a dignified acceptance ( not mere "tolerance") of others and the promotion of absolute freedom of self expression.

Live and let live - Yes!

Another funny story:

Apparently a Jewish journalist was walking through Belfast and was confronted by some youths who asked threateningly whether she was Protestant or Catholic. She replied that she was Jewish. They immediately asked: "Are you protestant jewish or catholic jewish?"

Religion, like skin colour, is a very "useful" label.

So, indeed, atheism, agnosticism, protestantism etc. are your real-life avatars, they serve as a label.

The question is - why some of us believe and some don't. I am one of the people increasingly interested to answer this question, because I was a believer and non-believer. Whether God or some other omnipotent "being" exists is one thing, but whether you believe in it or not is another thing. I have a strong feeling that the title question is very wrong, because if you don't believe you can still try to logically prove existence of God and if you believe you can also play devil's advocate and achieve the same positive result - a proof that something exists and doesn't exist.

The author of this topic may be a believer or he may be only tricking us, but the thing is - in real-life you don't really think about the subject that much - you either believe or not. Why some do and some don't?

Did anyone ever see the film "Monty pythons life of Brian" the "Peoples Front of Judia" leaps to mind on this forum. Without direct experience you will always know nothing. Stop the talk and DO. Reach for the sword and strike. Only then will you know the true meaning of battle. Aircraft were built by men who longed to fly, not by those who only spoke of it. There is a knack to flying that is gained only through experience. Talk as much as you like about riding bikes but cornering one at a hundred miles an hour takes a different skill. We should all be seeing the obvious here. The answers lie within, in deeper experience that is. Can it not be more plain to your sight?

Excellent! It is most important to distinguish between believers who have experienced God, and therefore believe. They have authentic faith, "the evidence of things hoped for." The dogmatists assert a choice to believe. Similarly, atheists who simply won't bother looking for evidence or experience, like the dogmatic believers, assert their choice. Some atheists like to claim that their unbelief is based on some sort of logical position, instead of simple preference choice. These are probably under ethical pressure, since if God really is out there, He has all sorts of ethical claims on those He created, and loves. Being an atheist is then sort of like saying your biological father doesn't exist. Like some parents write off children who broke some rule.

But, logic is good stuff, and is rather damaged by being dragged into such choices. Those who logically defend their atheism bend the rules of logic and ruin it. Technically, in philosophy, logic is simply a set of rules that derives the consequences of certain presuppositions. If one presupposes one's own long term survival is good, or desirable, then atheism is quite illogical. But, a masochist seeking a logical solution to getting as much pain and suffering as possible, with it's attendant pleasure of course, will find atheism a very logically derived wisdom.

Good post!

Hi Groktruth, I have not seen your name for a while, welcome back.

Well, this post has shown me how wrong I have been, and how I have misused logic. Here I was thinking that when there is no evidence for the existence of some supernatural entity, it was useless to believe that said entity existed. Well I have seen the light brother, and from now on I will believe and worship all these supernaturals, or at least all the ones I can think off. Until now I was sleeping very well, but now I realize that this was the result of fatigue due to unethical thinking, however now I will be to busy to sleep worrying about missing some important entity essential for me arriving in some realm on my demise. The list is long, all the Gods including the Greek ones and not forgetting about the eastern Asian ones, all the Heinlein characters, Bigfoot and Yeti, the Loch Ness monster[no telling the secret powers residing in Scotland], and I almost forgot Harry Potter, we all know how he has fought evil. Anyway, enough of this writing, I have to get busy worshipping and the list is long! Good thing I am retired because I will have no time to do any work

Regards, John.

Can a kid be a believer or atheist? Or logician? Or can it bend the rules? Or experience God?

My questions are serious, but what Id really love to know if there are any children on these forums, I mean 6 or less years old. The whole discussion feels a bit incomplete.

My eldest son is 6. He can read and write reasonably well and often talks about God*. Perhaps I'll get him on here!

*This raises an interesting point. We live in the UK. Technically there is a legal requirement in this country for all schools to have a daily act of religious worship. In practice this law is considered archaic and widely ignored, but my son's infant school does, at least some times, do it, and (we have recently discovered) occasionally brings in a Church of England cleric to talk about God.

Personally, I haven't fully made up my mind how much I'm bothered by this (I'm a hand-wringing ditherer). But my partner is more decisive and has much stronger feelings and we have taken our son out of these school assemblies. We do not want him to be presented, at this early age, when he still tends to believe what people tell him, with various myths and stories as if they are undisputed facts. But this hasn't stopped him from talking about God a lot (mostly because he knows it winds up his mother.)

The comparison with the US, and the parts of the US constitution that are widely interpreted as prohibiting this kind of thing in publicly funded schools, is amusingly ironic considering the much much greater religious observance there.

I don't really care about legal requirements in this or other country. I just want to know whether our kids are capable of "logically supporting" atheism. We are all humans, aren't we?

Hi EMTe

I believe that a six year old and logic are incompatible. At that age they are not able to deal with abstract ideas. So at that age they are like mirrors, taking in information from the authority figures in their life and accepting this information as gospel. So no, a six year old cannot deal logically with Theism or Atheism.

Regards, John.

We experience today through the lens of all our yesterdays. The key word in this sentence is I think "experience". Who will have agreement on this lens when it was not focused on them? And only on our yesterdays being our own experience. Philosophy will always stand alone. Experience will unite those who agree on its effect. Like a drug that is taken, those of experience will discuss its effects and agree upon them. But they will not agree with the one who took too much and headed down a path unknown to others. But there will be others who also took too much that will agree. Philosophy is a silent argument that sounds so loud, it deafens those who hear it spoken. And they seek soothing comfort in silence. And make more noise than they could ever want to hear.

-- Updated May 29th, 2012, 9:21 pm to add the following --

Children work with what is real, they have no decision over what is God or what is not. They have not yet worked in the realm of true fantasy. Yet they work with fantastical methods to arrive at the edge of dream and the unreal enough for us to consider that there is more to this world than words and dry coughs.

Children work with what is real, they have no decision over what is God or what is not. They have not yet worked in the realm of true fantasy. Yet they work with fantastical methods to arrive at the edge of dream and the unreal enough for us to consider that there is more to this world than words and dry coughs.

I wonder if that is the case. Children seem to have an unlimited capacity for fantasy. In their first books animals and cars and trains are often treated as persons and talk—and they see no contradiction with reality in this. Curious George and Thomas the train are characters in their stories. Children have a very permeable membrane between fact and fiction.

With all the fantasies they hear in stories and on TV, children have no trouble imagining God as an old man with a long white beard sitting on a throne watching everything that goes on in the world. This image becomes lodged in their intellects at a point where they are unable to question it and a predisposition toward religion is formed.