Death: reconciling two seemingly contradictory beliefs

Hi Sexy.

Life is a continuous learning experience and I think you have figured out that you are a whole entity, that what you do to your body, you do to your mind. When we overdo things there is a price to be payed. So the choices you make are important to yourself. Perhaps causal determinism is not as rock solid as you thought, perhaps we have some freedom to choose.

I wish you well!

Regards, John.

John,

I knew that having a healthy body is essential to having a healthy mind, but I had no idea that overworking the body & mind had such an effect. I'm glad I finally realized what the problem was. Every action has an effect.

Perhaps causal determinism is not true. As I mentioned, it is merely a belief. I don't believe anything can be known with absolute certainty. If I've claimed something as true, please understand that I am just stating my beliefs--I believe it to be true. There may be freedom to choose and there may not be. There may be an afterlife and there may not be. So far, my findings have lead me to believe that there is no afterlife and there is no freedom to choose; I admit I may be wrong.

If you would like to discuss this issue I am more than willing. It is a very important topic because of it's significant impact on the choices made by individuals.

Thank-you for the good wishes, best regards to you as well.

Hi Sexy.

I agree with you that the particular view we have has impact on us and how we live our life. I believe in a soft determinism in that only the possible can and will happen, but that chance plays a part. One of the known events that happened in the eath's distant past is that huge asteroids impacted earth. these were large parts of exploded stars. So the timing of this happening was critical as even a split second would have altered the trajectory over the huge distance travelled, to the point of missing our solar system altogether. QM also has cast some doubt on determinism working in the micro world with the jury still being out. There is some speculation that perhaps our minds function on the quantum level. There is another reason I believe we have choice, it makes me more responsible, for to believe all is determined makes us fatalistic, which I believe is debilitating. Now being a somewhat lazy person I do not want to make life harder then it is.

Regards, John.

Sup John,

It seems like you're saying randomness or chance is the gap for free-will to enter. Whether there is genuine randomness or not does not affect my belief on whether we have free-will. If there is randomness, you would be saying that our will is merely caused by random events rather than a chain of events.

I think it's important for me to explain what determinism means to me.

Determinism is usually defined to be the concept that given knowledge of the entirety of the universe at time t, the rest of the universe from t to infinity and t to negative infinity can be known. This is what I call the "unbroken chain of cause and effect."

Determinism when talking about free-will is (at least for me) defined differently. Determinism when talking about free-will is the concept that the human will is determined by causes external to itself.

Free-will is the concept that the will is at least partially undetermined/uncaused (to me this means at least partially random..i see no other definition for undetermined/uncaused except for random).

The diference between these two doctrines is that determinism in the sense I am using it says that the will is determined by external causes. Free-will says that the will is at least partially random (i.e. undetermined).

Whether randomness is true or not plays no part in this discussion. Even if the will is caused by random events, it is still caused. A free-will advocate must argue that the will is not completely determined by causes external to itself.

And in no way does determinism in this sense make me fatalistic. I believe in cause and effect, and I aim for those effects that are desirable to myself. I think that free-will actually makes us fatalistic (in the sense of an uncaused or random will). There is truly no reason to try if all actions are the result of a random will.

I wrote a good essay on this for my final in English class. I'd be more than willing to share it with you if you'd like to read it. It's 7 pages double-spaced--I think. Pretty short read and it will give you the gist of my position on free-will.

Hi Sexy.

Just to be clear I do not believe in free will. I am a senior citizen, not a god. For the rest I think we are so close in thought on this matter as to make little difference. On a month long visit to Abu Dhabi I indulged in going into the city on a walk about. I just let "the spirit move me" got on a bus not knowing exactly were it was going or when to get off. Not sure if the driver spoke english I did not want to bother him and the bus went off in an unknown [to me] area so I stayed on the bus and went through areas I had not visited before finally stopping in a place a long way from the city but recognized by me. I went and talked to the driver and yes he spoke some english and we had a pleasant discussion, him coming from Pakistan and I from Canada. This is what I mean by random, choices made, all within determined factors.

Regards, John.

Misunderstanding is probably the biggest cause of arguments/debates. I'm glad we have similar views, although I was interested to hear what you had to say about free-will.

That sounds so awesome! Your trip must have been delightful. I recognize what you mean by random or free-choices. But we both realize that it's just an illusion--intrinsic to human perception. The choices are absolutely caused although choices' causes may or may not be random.

...A much different age that I am looking forward to. I'll be twenty this year. I'm looking forward to being able to explore and experience different cultures.

Hi Sexy.

It is so good that a young person such as you, really just starting out in life as an independent being and I as someone in the twilight of being, can exchange ideas regardless of where we are or who we are. Nationality or color does not matter, even the belief of the other is no hindrance to respectfully exchange thoughts. When you think that in the first 14 years of my life we did not have a telephone and now I can communicate via computer with the world. It makes me wonder at what the world will be like when you get to your twilight years, which I hope you will reach!

Regards, John.

One says I won't exist someday and therefore nothing I do matters. I could die tonight or in eighty years and the result would be the same.

The other says that even if I won't exist someday, I will only ever know myself as living. Everything I do will always have an effect in my life. No action goes without consequence.

One says all actions matter. The other says no actions matter. I constantly get hung up on this and I'd like some insight if anyone has some of relevance to share.

We are so accustomed to the religious mode of thought that we come to believe only the eternal matters. That's what's good about having a dog. The dog cares when you come home, feed him, pet him, take him for a walk. That all matters to your dog even though he lives in the moment and gives no thought for the past or future, as far as we can tell.

What you do matters now, perhaps not in the long run, but it does matter right now and for the immediate future.

Many believers as well as non believers do not understand that 'eternity' includes the present.

Many believers as well as non believers do not understand that 'eternity' includes the present.

If one understands eternity as timelessness, and not as an unending timespan, then whoever lives in the present lives for all time. —Wittgenstein

John,

I love the internet for this very reason. It allows people to come together as faceless individuals and socialize. I think it's an excellent medium for debates and philosophy. I can't imagine what the future will be like; trying to imagine something that connects people more than the internet is difficult. I too am glad that our differences do not hinder us from exchanging thoughts as they might have in the past (without the internet).

Misty,

I think many people (and I myself am guilty of this) indulge in the idea of an endless future when they conceive the word 'eternity' (probably because of the notions of nirvana, heaven, and hell). Eternity also includes the present as you have mentioned, and the past. However, the difference made by including the present with eternity is negligible to this conversation, as the conversation has already reached a conclusion unless you had something else to offer to the original topic.

I realize that John and I have gone off-topic in this thread, so I guess you guys can talk about whatever until a mod closes it.