Christianity and Slavery

That is not how Satan appears in the book of Job. In this Satan is god's servant.

In any event if god is supposed to be all powerful, then the devil is his instrument.

...aside from the fact that god wouldn't need a devil to overcome in the first place since he's already far surpassed Him in the crime category. God's directive to his "chosen people" (a stupid phrase) to kill, exterminate and enslave others did not come from the Devil. So if his intention was to finally overcome evil, He'd have to commit suicide. One of the greatest depictions of Evil in all of literature is the O.T. God a truly malignant figure if there ever was one. His true offspring are Stalin and Hitler not Jesus. But again it all makes sense if understood in it's historical context, that is, as a "human" document and chronicle, nothing more much like the Malleus Maleficarum is a human document.

...aside from the fact that god wouldn't need a devil to overcome in the first place since he's already far surpassed Him in the crime category. God's directive to his "chosen people" (a stupid phrase) to kill, exterminate and enslave others did not come from the Devil. So if his intention was to finally overcome evil, He'd have to commit suicide. One of the greatest depictions of Evil in all of literature is the O.T. God a truly malignant figure if there ever was one. His true offspring are Stalin and Hitler not Jesus. But again it all makes sense if understood in it's historical context, that is, as a "human" document and chronicle, nothing more much like the Malleus Maleficarum is a human document.

Yes, the odd thing is that Xinanity does not seem to realise it. A test was done where the names were changed to foreign ones, and the stories of the bible were given to young people and asked to judge what they thought about them in terms of fairness and justice. They slammed the bible stories and declared that the Jews and their god were evil. To a similar group, but with the original names they were forgiving of god and made excuses about god and the jews. Such is the power of indoctrination. To those that can believe in absurdities, can be convinced to do evil.

Yes, the odd thing is that Xinanity does not seem to realise it. A test was done where the names were changed to foreign ones, and the stories of the bible were given to young people and asked to judge what they thought about them in terms of fairness and justice. They slammed the bible stories and declared that the Jews and their god were evil. To a similar group, but with the original names they were forgiving of god and made excuses about god and the jews. Such is the power of indoctrination. To those that can believe in absurdities, can be convinced to do evil.

In the land of absurdity free will abounds and every belief becomes rational. Never subjected to any contemporary standard it becomes rational by default. Anathema to most believers is an intellect subservient to discoveries which annul their frozen 2000 & 3000 year old realities, the absolute authority for which "because the bible tells me so"! Even the Biblical Jews constantly transgressed their "authorized version" and the Lord was not pleased and ready to prove it on every occasion!

BaruchSpinoza wrote:

Yes, the odd thing is that Xinanity does not seem to realise it.

I assume you mean 'Christians' when you wrote Xristianity. This is because unthinking people are stupid. Indoctrinated people have been caused to become stupid by whoever indoctrinated them.

It is easy to cause normal people to become anchored to some fixed idea from which all their subsequent beliefs flow and to which all their subsequent beliefs are attached. Education systems in free countries shouild aim to teach children how to escape from would- be indoctrinators.

Christianity can become freed from superstition, from supernaturalism, and from authoritarian rule, and still recognizably be Christianity. Many Christians are too old, or too set their ways, or too greedy, to re-educate themselves in a refomed Christianity

BaruchSpinoza wrote:



I assume you mean 'Christians' when you wrote Xristianity. This is because unthinking people are stupid. Indoctrinated people have been caused to become stupid by whoever indoctrinated them.

It is easy to cause normal people to become anchored to some fixed idea from which all their subsequent beliefs flow and to which all their subsequent beliefs are attached. Education systems in free countries shouild aim to teach children how to escape from would- be indoctrinators.

Christianity can become freed from superstition, from supernaturalism, and from authoritarian rule, and still recognizably be Christianity. Many Christians are too old, or too set their ways, or too greedy, to re-educate themselves in a refomed Christianity

I did not write Christianity , but Xinanity (read more carefully). Even if you were to expunge all superstition and mysticism from Christianity, it would still fail to answer many of our most pressing questions. Though the idea of brotherly love, if it can be found in the NT, is a good one, there are so many out of date ideas and lack of relevance to the modern world , that I just think it necessary to keep moving on. Our moral systems have to be far more sophisticated, and responsive to following (even a modified) single book.

-- Updated July 22nd, 2012, 4:17 am to add the following --

In the land of absurdity free will abounds and every belief becomes rational. Never subjected to any contemporary standard it becomes rational by default. Anathema to most believers is an intellect subservient to discoveries which annul their frozen 2000 & 3000 year old realities, the absolute authority for which "because the bible tells me so"! Even the Biblical Jews constantly transgressed their "authorized version" and the Lord was not pleased and ready to prove it on every occasion!

I suppose you could give the Xians brownie points for following the book, but that would make them ridiculously confused and sectarian as groups mobilised against each other to privileged certain passages over others... oh wait that was exactly what happened. Their frozen realities seem like a bucket of ice full of worms which when thawed spill out thier chaos, and decay. Maybe it would be better to re-freeze the books and place them where they belong- in a museum for academinc study like the Odyssey and the Iliad.

I did not write Christianity , but Xinanity (read more carefully).

I doubt that Belinda missed it. She probably recognised what you wrote as something that sets you apart as a person who has been indoctinated by a particular religious world view.

Even if you were to expunge all superstition and mysticism from Christianity, it would still fail to answer many of our most pressing questions.

Would you elaborate a little on these pressing questions. God's instructions concerning the merciful and humane treatment of servants/slaves have already been demonstrated. What would you like to investigate now?

Cheers
enegue

I doubt that Belinda missed it. She probably recognised what you wrote as something that sets you apart as a person who has been indoctinated by a particular religious world view.


Would you elaborate a little on these pressing questions. God's instructions concerning the merciful and humane treatment of servants/slaves have already been demonstrated. What would you like to investigate now?

Cheers
enegue

You have failed to address this issue. It seems pointless to encourage you to try again.

You have failed to address this issue. It seems pointless to encourage you to try again.

Well, you can legitimately say that you are not happy with how I addressed the issue, but you can't say that I didn't address it. If you are not happy with how I addressed it, then just saying so doesn't constitute a valid argument.

What have I said about God's instructions to Israel in regard to servants/slaves are you not happy with?

Cheers,
enegue

Well, you can legitimately say that you are not happy with how I addressed the issue, but you can't say that I didn't address it. If you are not happy with how I addressed it, then just saying so doesn't constitute a valid argument.

What have I said about God's instructions to Israel in regard to servants/slaves are you not happy with?

Cheers,
enegue

I'm not happy with the naive idea that god wrote the bible.

I am not happy that Jesus did not speak against slavery

I am not happy that people cling to 10 out of date commandments that do not begin to address real issues of the present.

I am not happy with a single thing you said in defense and the fact that you tended to ignore all the objections that were placed in front of you.

I am not happy in the idea that the bible give us good examples of how to live, but is in fact the record of an evil and capricious god hell bent on servitude and racism.

I am not happy that anyone would want to defend the idea of such a god.

I am very happy that a vast majority of people, governments and institutions now regard the bible as little more that a mythical history and have relegated it to the museum of socio-political curios and now longer consult it for any thing more than academic interest.

I am not happy that a small vociferous minority willing to kill and maim innocent people still cling to the outdated ideas in the bible and want to impose them, and think they have the right to impose then on others. Such people are ruthless in their delusion.

I'm not happy with the naive idea that god wrote the bible.

I am not happy that Jesus did not speak against slavery

I am not happy that people cling to 10 out of date commandments that do not begin to address real issues of the present.

I am not happy with a single thing you said in defense and the fact that you tended to ignore all the objections that were placed in front of you.

I am not happy in the idea that the bible give us good examples of how to live, but is in fact the record of an evil and capricious god hell bent on servitude and racism.

I am not happy that anyone would want to defend the idea of such a god.

I am very happy that a vast majority of people, governments and institutions now regard the bible as little more that a mythical history and have relegated it to the museum of socio-political curios and now longer consult it for any thing more than academic interest.

I am not happy that a small vociferous minority willing to kill and maim innocent people still cling to the outdated ideas in the bible and want to impose them, and think they have the right to impose then on others. Such people are ruthless in their delusion.

It has been frustrating having him try to make something barbaric look all pretty and flowery because he has an agenda of maintaining the bible's credibility. Then he actually takes the line: "I've shown ..." when he has shown nothing at all. There's no excuse for slavery, no matter how pretty you try to make it look. I'd hate to quote Sarah Palin, but didn't she say something like if you put lipstick on a pit bull, it is still just a pit bull.

It has been frustrating having him try to make something barbaric look all pretty and flowery because he has an agenda of maintaining the bible's credibility. Then he actually takes the line: "I've shown ..." when he has shown nothing at all. There's no excuse for slavery, no matter how pretty you try to make it look. I'd hate to quote Sarah Palin, but didn't she say something like if you put lipstick on a pit bull, it is still just a pit bull.

I find this tendency amongst the Faithful to be very worrying. It reminds me of extreme patriots and ideologues; Hitler youth, fanaticism. The erge to belong, to abrogate responsibility of the will and self determination in favour of following; my country right or wrong; Ein Volk, ein reich , ein fuhrer, by jingo! Perhaps it feels safer?

Was Sarah Palin talking about herself

I find this tendency amongst the Faithful to be very worrying. It reminds me of extreme patriots and ideologues; Hitler youth, fanaticism. The erge to belong, to abrogate responsibility of the will and self determination in favour of following; my country right or wrong; Ein Volk, ein reich , ein fuhrer, by jingo! Perhaps it feels safer?

Was Sarah Palin talking about herself

I think she was.

I'm not happy with the naive idea that god wrote the bible.

Well, let me tell you. I don't believe God wrote the Bible, either. It is patently clear that people published the texts that have found their way to our point in history. However, we are told that God did etch the ten commandments in tablets of stone. Believe it or not, it makes no difference to the fact that they give the impression of being written by a higher intelligence.

I am not happy that Jesus did not speak against slavery

That's because you aren't willing to let go of your grip on the misinformation you've been fed. It's clear that no other nation had laws that protected its servants/slave from the abuses that you detest with such passion.

What, again, was your objection to the appearance of laws in the Bible that permitted servants/slaves to escape oppressive masters without fear of being returned?

I am not happy that people cling to 10 out of date commandments that do not begin to address real issues of the present.

This is because you don't understand how clever they are, and you don't understand because you DON'T WANT TO.

I am not happy with a single thing you said in defense and the fact that you tended to ignore all the objections that were placed in front of you.

I didn't ignore ANYTHING you put in front of me. I simply presented you with the idea that your understanding of slavery was a different animal to the one God established in his laws given to OT Israel. I demonstrated that clearly.

I am not happy in the idea that the bible give us good examples of how to live, but is in fact the record of an evil and capricious god hell bent on servitude and racism.

These words are just empty rhetoric. If you take the journey with me over here I can help you see that for yourself.

I am not happy that anyone would want to defend the idea of such a god.

Goodness, BS. Only you are defending the idea of such a god. You are painting a picture of what you see. Your the one mining the Bible for evil. It isn't any wonder that you see what you see. There are ALWAYS different ways of interpreting laws. The way a person interprets them is more a reflection of what is happening inside the person, than it is of the law.

I am very happy that a vast majority of people, governments and institutions now regard the bible as little more that a mythical history and have relegated it to the museum of socio-political curios and now longer consult it for any thing more than academic interest.

What do they call unsubstantiated statements like, "a vast majority of people, governments and institutions"? I think they are referred to as Weasel words.

I am not happy that a small vociferous minority willing to kill and maim innocent people still cling to the outdated ideas in the bible and want to impose them, and think they have the right to impose then on others. Such people are ruthless in their delusion.

Surely, you aren't accusing me of wanting to kill and maim innocent people? On what evidence? My desire to show you how your understanding of slavery is inconsistent with the laws that God gave Israel in relation to the treatment of servants/slaves?

Cheers,
enegue

Well, let me tell you. I don't believe God wrote the Bible, either. It is patently clear that people published the texts that have found their way to our point in history. However, we are told that God did etch the ten commandments in tablets of stone. Believe it or not, it makes no difference to the fact that they give the impression of being written by a higher intelligence.
That is risible for a range of reason I have already set out. And the act of an old man ascending a mountain to get nearer to god to so that he can more easily inscribe the stone to write what are a collection of self-gratified and self-centred rules from an apparently insecure god might convince a bunch of neolithic illiterate goat-herders, but does not convince me.

That's because you aren't willing to let go of your grip on the misinformation you've been fed. I've been 'fed' nothing different from the same incoherent religious indoctrination that you have had. The only reason seems to be that you have swallowed, whilst I have chosen to discriminate in a different way. It's clear that no other nation had laws that protected its servants/slave from the abuses that you detest with such passion. No so - it was illegal in Athens to kill a slave as can be inferred from the Socratic dialogue Euthyphro. The only thing that is clear is your ignorance of this fact

What, again, was your objection to the appearance of laws in the Bible that permitted servants/slaves to escape oppressive masters without fear of being returned?
None and when you actually attend to what I said and not what you want me to say then you will have understanding. You will also increse your understanding when you attend to what the bible says rather than your "cherry picked" version of it.

This is because you don't understand how clever they are, and you don't understand because you DON'T WANT TO.
This is a moderated Forum please do not shout. I can read what they say, and they are woeful inadequate. For the reasons I have already enumerated.

I didn't ignore ANYTHING you put in front of me. I simply presented you with the idea that your understanding of slavery was a different animal to the one God established in his laws given to OT Israel. I demonstrated that clearly.
Please desist from shouting.

These words are just empty rhetoric. If you take the journey with me over here I can help you see that for yourself.
Stop being insulting. The only thing that is empty is your response - you have failed to address the objection

Goodness, BS. I image that BS stands for Bullsh1t - (as in bovine excrement) or do you mean something else? This is a moderated forum, if you can't stand to have your religion criticised without getting angry, then either find another platform or take on some of the internal contradictions that you now seem to be facing that has unhinged you. But I suggested that we end the conversation in my last post, maybe that is the only way forward?Only you are defending the idea of such a god. You are painting a picture of what you see. Your the one mining the Bible for evil. It isn't any wonder that you see what you see. There are ALWAYS different ways of interpreting laws. The way a person interprets them is more a reflection of what is happening inside the person, than it is of the law.
Back to you. You seem blind to the genocide and cruelty of the bible endorsed time and again by your god. Think about it! But take it somewhere else - I see no reason to mine the bible for good - its only one book among millions of more important and relevant ones.


Thankfully most governments now do not endorse genocide.

Surely, you aren't accusing me of wanting to kill and maim innocent people? On what evidence?
What part of "small vociferous minority" do you not understand. Thankfully the worse of this sort of religious intolerance is now restricted to emerge from countries where religion has power, such as part of Islam. The reason we no longer breed some many fanatics is due to secular society. But the time is always immanent where religious bigotry can re-emerge and secularists need to be watchful and always on guard to prevent biblical literalists and other fundamentalists from seizing control and imposing their morals and wished on to other people.
Cheers,
enegue

I think we are done here.

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Confused Black Minister


Religions relate fictional stories that no one questions.

Science relate facts that everybody questions...



The rub is that today, in our society, science is expressing the miracles, religions are expressing violence, hatred, and death.








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