The Cure For Global Warming

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Greta
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Re: The Cure For Global Warming

Post by Greta » March 14th, 2018, 10:37 pm

Given humanity's tendency towards self aggrandisement it's amusing to see this new humility appear, where suddenly we believe that Man cannot seriously alter the climate. The funny side is that mere microbes - the blue-green algae - did exactly that during the Permian extinction event; they completely changed the atmosphere and, subsequently, conditions for life on Earth, and yet no one has a problem doubting this.

Yet when the restructuring is done by humans it's deemed unbelievable, as though humanity had less capacity than algae. Now it's Homo sapiens's turn to restructure the planet's surface. There's nothing strange about it, really, although it seems most likely that billions will die out later on this century because the planet can only sustain so many large, hungry hominids with a taste for the high life.

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Re: The Cure For Global Warming

Post by Fooloso4 » March 16th, 2018, 10:33 am

Greta:
Given humanity's tendency towards self aggrandisement it's amusing to see this new humility appear, where suddenly we believe that Man cannot seriously alter the climate. The funny side is that mere microbes - the blue-green algae - did exactly that during the Permian extinction event; they completely changed the atmosphere and, subsequently, conditions for life on Earth, and yet no one has a problem doubting this.

Yet when the restructuring is done by humans it's deemed unbelievable, as though humanity had less capacity than algae. Now it's Homo sapiens's turn to restructure the planet's surface. There's nothing strange about it, really, although it seems most likely that billions will die out later on this century because the planet can only sustain so many large, hungry hominids with a taste for the high life.
I agree, but would call it false humility, a guise to mask an unwillingness to take responsibility for our actions.

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Re: The Cure For Global Warming

Post by Greta » March 16th, 2018, 7:20 pm

Fooloso4 wrote:
March 16th, 2018, 10:33 am
Given humanity's tendency towards self aggrandisement it's amusing to see this new humility appear, where suddenly we believe that Man cannot seriously alter the climate. The funny side is that mere microbes - the blue-green algae - did exactly that during the Permian extinction event; they completely changed the atmosphere and, subsequently, conditions for life on Earth, and yet no one has a problem with this. [corrected typo in original post]

Yet when the restructuring is done by humans it's deemed unbelievable, as though humanity had less capacity than algae. Now it's Homo sapiens's turn to restructure the planet's surface. There's nothing strange about it, really, although it seems most likely that billions will die out later on this century because the planet can only sustain so many large, hungry hominids with a taste for the high life.
I agree, but would call it false humility, a guise to mask an unwillingness to take responsibility for our actions.
Perhaps, although I think there is also a hangover from religious belief that we are little beings, powerless against the gods; some really do believe it. There is a misconception when considering "the Earth". What we are talking about is a very thin sliver of land and sea at the very surface - whose activities matter not at all to the planet's core and mantle but are crucial for the biosphere, including technological apes.

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Re: The Cure For Global Warming

Post by Fooloso4 » March 16th, 2018, 9:39 pm

Greta:
I think there is also a hangover from religious belief that we are little beings, powerless against the gods …
Good point. Now that you mention it, U.S. congressman Tim Walberg recently claimed that there has been climate change since the beginning of time and that if it becomes a “real problem” God will “take care of it”, that “man [can’t] change the entire universe”, and that “God is much bigger than us”.

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Re: The Cure For Global Warming

Post by Greta » March 18th, 2018, 6:00 pm

Fooloso4 wrote:
March 16th, 2018, 9:39 pm
Greta:
I think there is also a hangover from religious belief that we are little beings, powerless against the gods …
Good point. Now that you mention it, U.S. congressman Tim Walberg recently claimed that there has been climate change since the beginning of time and that if it becomes a “real problem” God will “take care of it”, that “man [can’t] change the entire universe”, and that “God is much bigger than us”.
Yikes. It will be a fine thing when humanity has advanced to the point where the blind babbling of Walberg's kind is treated as it deserves - as superstitious blabbering that's only a step or two removed from the mindset that brought about virgin sacrifices designed to change the weather.

People do appear to be thrown by the fact that we don't so much live on the Earth as the very surface of the crust and "the thin blue line" of our atmosphere, which are not such huge domains when it comes to billions of large, highly energy hungry hominids and the ecosystems needed to support them.

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Re: The Cure For Global Warming

Post by Atreyu » March 19th, 2018, 4:29 pm

it cannot be managed. We have to adapt to the big forces of Nature, not futilely try to alter them to suit our fancy...

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Re: The Cure For Global Warming

Post by Greta » March 19th, 2018, 8:02 pm

Atreyu wrote:
March 19th, 2018, 4:29 pm
it cannot be managed. We have to adapt to the big forces of Nature, not futilely try to alter them to suit our fancy...
It's a matter of mitigation. At present adaptation is difficult due to the inertia of powerful energy corporations determined not to waste their fossil fuel infrastructure. Once this drag factor is released rapid progress in this area will be achieved.

There is a lesson in this: as society consumes ever more energy, energy companies become ever more powerful. There is simply no organisation powerful enough to bring errant fossil fuel companies into line - and it's most unlikely when Republican presidents have fossil fuel company investments and board memberships, so now people are essentially at these companies' mercy, or lack. When these companies decide that sustainable energy is more profitable, there will be rapid infrastructure change.

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Re: The Cure For Global Warming

Post by Robert66 » March 25th, 2018, 2:58 pm

I haven't looked at these Forums for a while, but I'm glad to find that your analysis is as sharp as ever, Greta, and your turn of phrase a joy to read: 'hungry hominids with a taste for the high life', and 'technological apes' - I love it!

Re. the OP: I think Theboombody is a bit muddled in their thinking. 'Better technology' would be better because it would be better environmentally. Solar power would be better than coal-fired power, for example, and not a 'gimmick'. Third-worlders, from necessity, and the Amish by choice/tradition, may have a lesser environmental impact than the typical Australian or US citizen, but expecting change to come from mass adoption of impoverished lifestyles is beyond wishful thinking.

Theboombody does point the discussion in the right direction, though. The "trick", I believe, is in getting the legislators to actually pay attention to the 'better environmentalists', eg Tim Flannery, who argues that we actually possess technologies now which could significantly reduce the negative effects of climate change, yet we need the political determination to implement these.

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Re: The Cure For Global Warming

Post by Barry Sears » April 4th, 2018, 6:28 am

LuckyR Quoted
Regardless of the cause, it's happening and going to cause devastation to a substantial minority of the population of the planet. Luckily it can be managed, though it will take a certain will to do so, which is currently lacking.


Atreyu Quoted
it cannot be managed. We have to adapt to the big forces of Nature, not futilely try to alter them to suit our fancy...


Planetary motion as a cause to a global warming process as part of the planetary evolutionary life-cycle is not necessarily something that can be managed, but more understood at this point of time. Adaptation is unavoidable, even subtle forms are evident. What is manageable is our ability to prepare for future changes.

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Re: The Cure For Global Warming

Post by Greta » April 4th, 2018, 7:29 pm

Robert66 wrote:
March 25th, 2018, 2:58 pm
Third-worlders, from necessity, and the Amish by choice/tradition, may have a lesser environmental impact than the typical Australian or US citizen, but expecting change to come from mass adoption of impoverished lifestyles is beyond wishful thinking.
Exactly Robert - LTNS :) If impoverished lifestyles are to become more common, it surely won't be by choice for most. Also note that such lifestyles can be more problematic at times, where very poor people destroy forests and wildlife to survive and convert lands into dust bowls. Much as they irk me, cities appear to be the most sustainable way for humans to live - to have us concentrated together like rats or sardines, thus leaving room for ecosystems.
Robert66 wrote:... technologies now which could significantly reduce the negative effects of climate change, yet we need the political determination to implement these.
Even if everyone did the right thing, for how long would that postpone serious environmental problems populations grow? Maybe a century? Having people control their production of children seems almost as fraught as having them relinquish their lifestyles.

I personally doubt that AGW will be cured due to the lack of political will you mention. There is a basic conflict of interest. Consider the likes of Trump. He is entirely disconnected from nature, having spent a lifetime battling environmental agencies so as to replace nature with human stuff. Most people need the benefits of ecosystems to live. The super wealthy are working towards the point where they will not need ecosystems to survive.

Modern US and east Asia point to the future - one where the poor and other species are treated as expendable objects and decimated, with many humans and other animals occupying only the shrinking remaining niches of habitability. Around the poles will be the protected artificial compounds of the super wealthy, synthesising food from bacteria (like Asimov's Mycogens), and primarily populated and defended by AI, which ultimately will be better equipped to handle the harsh and unstable future climate of the future Earth.

There is a positive to come from this ostensibly depressing dystopian projection :) The Sun is expanding so life of Earth was already soon to be doomed (by geological time frames) and human/AI space exploration is the one way that the Earth's life can continue its remarkable journey.

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Re: The Cure For Global Warming

Post by Barry Sears » April 8th, 2018, 6:02 am

There is a positive to come from this ostensibly depressing dystopian projection :) The Sun is expanding so life of Earth was already soon to be doomed (by geological time frames) and human/AI space exploration is the one way that the Earth's life can continue its remarkable journey.

There are lots of theories and the sun expanding is another idea that is part of the planetary motion concepts. If the earth is actually moving towards the Sun as scientific evidence presented already suggests, then this also achieves the same effect as the sun expanding. Once again the motion of planetary evolution and planetary formation moving as detailed towards the sun, is a motion that can be calculated and determined. This environmental changing process will not create a dystopian situation, this is a social issue. Environmental understanding and awareness will help prepare for future changes and will assist in producing a more utopian society.
The New Perspective details the planetary life-cycle and identifies the position of Earth within the phase of water. Scientific estimations suggest water appeared 4500 million years ago and life began 4000 million years ago. According to the planetary motion theory, moving towards the sun, the Earth is positioned approximately half way through the goldilocks zone but the remaining years are relative to the variable year length due to the reducing distance from the sun.
Would logic suggest we explore a planet closer to the sun or further from the sun? Planetary motion suggesting the planets move towards the sun would determine that Mars would be the most likely option. I don't believe there is a rush though we still have relatively millions of years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... ry_of_life

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Re: The Cure For Global Warming

Post by Robert66 » April 8th, 2018, 4:14 pm

Greta wrote:
April 4th, 2018, 7:29 pm
If impoverished lifestyles are to become more common, it surely won't be by choice for most.
Precisely, Greta. The cure for global warming is like the cure for lots of ills - someone else's problem for as long as we can avoid it being our problem.
Greta wrote:
April 4th, 2018, 7:29 pm
cities appear to be the most sustainable way for humans to live - to have us concentrated together like rats or sardines, thus leaving room for ecosystems.
They also offer plenty of cover for those of us who prefer to act anti-socially - the Range Rover syndrome. Driving in the country recently my friend remarked how pleasant it was to get away from all the 4WDs (once purchased solely by farmers haha).

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Re: The Cure For Global Warming

Post by Greta » April 8th, 2018, 5:29 pm

Robert66 wrote:
April 8th, 2018, 4:14 pm
Greta wrote:
April 4th, 2018, 7:29 pm
If impoverished lifestyles are to become more common, it surely won't be by choice for most.
Precisely, Greta. The cure for global warming is like the cure for lots of ills - someone else's problem for as long as we can avoid it being our problem.
Greta wrote:
April 4th, 2018, 7:29 pm
cities appear to be the most sustainable way for humans to live - to have us concentrated together like rats or sardines, thus leaving room for ecosystems.
They also offer plenty of cover for those of us who prefer to act anti-socially - the Range Rover syndrome. Driving in the country recently my friend remarked how pleasant it was to get away from all the 4WDs (once purchased solely by farmers haha).
At the moment it seems that the "someone else" will be our children and following generations. Our generation will be remembered ...

That's hilarious about 4WDs now being more prevalent in the city. Depressing too, but one must keep one's chin up! I suppose in context I was just thinking about what's best for the environment. Crossing fingers that our minds will be digitised so we can live harmlessly in virtual reality without doing so much damage - like the mirror dimension in Dr Strange :)

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Re: The Cure For Global Warming

Post by Robert66 » April 13th, 2018, 4:55 pm

Greta wrote:
April 8th, 2018, 5:29 pm
At the moment it seems that the "someone else" will be our children and following generations.
Yes indeed. When will we stop tolerating those who have but one "brilliant" idea - to tax the future in order to subsidise the present.
Greta wrote:
April 8th, 2018, 5:29 pm
Crossing fingers that our minds will be digitised so we can live harmlessly in virtual reality without doing so much damage
I do believe you have the universal solution right there, Greta. I do mean universal - there is nothing quite like digital transfer to prevent thousands of boring light years of travelling. You can be that crazy alien on planet X, and they can be you! And closer to home, all can be and do whoever and whatever they like (and leave what is left of nature for kooky wanderers like me). I do hope this future comes soon, though, before the "selfie" brigade destroy any more of my once-favourite places.


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