Is morality objective or subjective?

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by ThomasHobbes » August 12th, 2018, 6:38 am

Eduk wrote:
August 12th, 2018, 6:12 am
For example, if you desire to stay alive, you will need to eat, and therefore you make the value judgement that food is good to have and to desire.
Yes but 'desiring to stay alive' can't be proven to be 'good'?
Indeed, if you can think of any instance where continuing to live is a bad idea then you come back to the inherent subjectiveness of moral judgements.

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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Eduk » August 12th, 2018, 6:58 am

Well I think you can make an argument that all morality is existential. But you have to look at the big picture. For example altruism on the face of it might seem to argue against existential claims but existentially we are all much better off if altruism is high and what better way to insure this than to be altruistic yourself. Basically it's not straightforward and time and life, as a whole, need to be considered.
But you are still left with a subjective claim that existence is 'good'.
I do feel though that many subjective claims are not as subjective as they seem. For example let us imagine that you like the temperature to be 21 and I like it to be 20. Maybe good arguments can be made for both but we would normally just say it's subjective and get on with our lives. If however you liked 21 and I liked 100 then it might be objective.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by ThomasHobbes » August 12th, 2018, 7:02 am

Eduk wrote:
August 12th, 2018, 6:58 am
Well I think you can make an argument that all morality is existential. But you have to look at the big picture. For example altruism on the face of it might seem to argue against existential claims but existentially we are all much better off if altruism is high and what better way to insure this than to be altruistic yourself. Basically it's not straightforward and time and life, as a whole, need to be considered.
But you are still left with a subjective claim that existence is 'good'.
I do feel though that many subjective claims are not as subjective as they seem. For example let us imagine that you like the temperature to be 21 and I like it to be 20. Maybe good arguments can be made for both but we would normally just say it's subjective and get on with our lives. If however you liked 21 and I liked 100 then it might be objective.
Trying to apply the false gods of objectivity and subjectivity is a hopeless cause in questions of morality.
All moral claims need be argued for on their own basis, with clear disclosures about the sort of value laden assumptions you are applying.
Objectivity is not relevant here.

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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Eduk » August 12th, 2018, 7:26 am

In that case, you didn't write any posts TH.

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Felix
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Felix » August 13th, 2018, 11:56 am

Eduk: Yes but 'desiring to stay alive' can't be proven to be 'good'?
To a sane person, the desire to live is self evidently good. An objective morality would seek to provide people's common needs, not their individual subjective wants. There are exceptions to every rule, but that is not a reason not to have rules.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Eduk » August 13th, 2018, 12:19 pm

To a sane person, the desire to live is self evidently good.
Yes but 'the desire to live' being 'self evidently good' is subjective not objective. I have no issue with it being objective that that is your subjective belief.

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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by LuckyR » August 13th, 2018, 1:10 pm

Felix wrote:
August 13th, 2018, 11:56 am
Eduk: Yes but 'desiring to stay alive' can't be proven to be 'good'?
To a sane person, the desire to live is self evidently good. An objective morality would seek to provide people's common needs, not their individual subjective wants. There are exceptions to every rule, but that is not a reason not to have rules.
Excellent, morality is not the realm of the lone resident of a desert island. It usually involves interaction with other individuals and their "desire to live", thus where the inherent subjectivity of the enterprise originates.
"As usual... it depends."

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Felix
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Felix » August 13th, 2018, 1:22 pm

Yes but 'the desire to live' being 'self evidently good' is subjective not objective. I have no issue with it being objective that that is your subjective belief.
An objective morality would be founded on "right desires," which are desires that are commensurate with universal human needs, and the will to live is obviously such a right desire. Murder and suicide are not. The fact that some individuals, for whatever reason, lose their will to live, does not invalidate the fact that it is a right desire, it just means that their personal deficiency prevents them from realizing it.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Eduk » August 13th, 2018, 2:50 pm

Not sure what the problem with objective here is. Let me try to give an example. I weigh 100kg as evidence I can be weighed. I can be weighed in double blinded studies. In peer reviewed studies. By different, independent, bodies. I can be compared. I can set past president. I can logically argue. We can be pretty sure, at least as sure as can be, that I do indeed objectively weigh 100kg.
But I can think of no such logic or tests or any evidence at all that you can demonstrate that life is 'good'.
By the way I'm not saying that life isn't 'good', just that it is not objective fact. You would think on a philosophy forum that this would be understood.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by ThomasHobbes » August 13th, 2018, 3:55 pm

Felix wrote:
August 13th, 2018, 1:22 pm
Yes but 'the desire to live' being 'self evidently good' is subjective not objective. I have no issue with it being objective that that is your subjective belief.
An objective morality would be founded on "right desires," which are desires that are commensurate with universal human needs,
Go on then!

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by ThomasHobbes » August 13th, 2018, 3:57 pm

Felix wrote:
August 13th, 2018, 1:22 pm
The fact that some individuals, for whatever reason, lose their will to live, does not invalidate the fact that it is a right desire, it just means that their personal deficiency prevents them from realizing it.
You simply do not have the 'right' to judge another until you are in their shoes.

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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Eduk » August 13th, 2018, 4:02 pm

I can set past president.
Sorry meant precedent.

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Felix
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Felix » August 13th, 2018, 8:36 pm

Eduk: But I can think of no such logic or tests or any evidence at all that you can demonstrate that life is 'good'.
I didn't say that "life is good," I said that having a will or desire to live is good. You can easily verify the truth of that statement by finding someone who has no will to live and considering the quality of their life. Obviously we cannot have the same sort of objective certainty about moral conclusions as we can about weights and measurements but we can approximate it by considering the known facts about human nature.
ThomasHobbes: You simply do not have the 'right' to judge another until you are in their shoes.
The only judgement I made was that, in terms of health, a person without a will to live is "deficient" compared to a person who has a will to live.
I can set past president.
I live in the U.S., please do me a favor and set our current president.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Eduk » August 14th, 2018, 3:01 am

I said that having a will or desire to live is good. You can easily verify the truth of that statement by finding someone who has no will to live and considering the quality of their life.
That's not what objective means. What do you think objective means? I think it means something is objective when its truth conditions are met without feelings or opinions.
Your example requires personal judgement on quality of life.
For example there are a large number of species who would be doing rather better without humans. They may well find it 'good' for humans to not desire to live.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by ThomasHobbes » August 14th, 2018, 6:50 am

Felix wrote:
August 13th, 2018, 8:36 pm
The only judgement I made was that, in terms of health, a person without a will to live is "deficient" compared to a person who has a will to live.
Maybe you should check your arrogance and consider the possibility that it is YOU who is deficient. Deficient in reason and imagination.
Imagination might help you investigate the possibility that having a will to live is a great harm to others.

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