Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
User avatar
Felix
Posts: 2011
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by Felix » August 10th, 2018, 3:28 pm

anonymous66 wrote: It seems to me that it is harder to make Christianity compatible with evolution than I first imagined. An acquaintance remarked that if evolution is true, then we have no sin nature, if we have no sin nature, then Jesus died for nothing, and Christianity is pointless.
That is a tenet of orthodox Christianity - Catholicism, et. al. There are Christian sects who don't take it and other Biblical conceptions so literally. I don't see a conflict between being a Christian and accepting the theory of evolution.
Nagel believes there is a will that is responsible for the existence of our universe, and for what happens in it. It might even be consistent with deism- but Nagel insists that it is consistent with his atheism.
God's Will without God? Don't see how that would be consistent with atheism.
what in the Bible is not myth?
Myths, parables and allegories are not to be taken literally, they become nonsense when they are.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

anonymous66
Posts: 154
Joined: January 12th, 2018, 4:01 pm

Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by anonymous66 » August 10th, 2018, 6:34 pm

Felix wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 3:28 pm
That is a tenet of orthodox Christianity - Catholicism, et. al. There are Christian sects who don't take it and other Biblical conceptions so literally. I don't see a conflict between being a Christian and accepting the theory of evolution.
If evolution, then how is it that humans have a sin nature. Do we agree that It didn't happen the way that it is reported to have happened in Genesis? There was no first human couple.
Nagel believes there is a will that is responsible for the existence of our universe, and for what happens in it. It might even be consistent with deism- but Nagel insists that it is consistent with his atheism.
God's Will without God? Don't see how that would be consistent with atheism.
I read Nagel's book Mind and Cosmos. Nagel rejects theism and doesn't even mention Deism. He is considering what he calls an Aristotlean teleology and panpsychism. God doesn't figure into Nagel's metaphysics.
what in the Bible is not myth?
Myths, parables and allegories are not to be taken literally, they become nonsense when they are.

Exactly. What Christians need is a way to determine what is myth, parable and allegory. Isn't it likely that the very idea of a sin nature is also myth?

User avatar
Felix
Posts: 2011
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by Felix » August 11th, 2018, 12:48 am

If evolution, then how is it that humans have a sin nature. Do we agree that It didn't happen the way that it is reported to have happened in Genesis? There was no first human couple.
As I said, it's only a problem if you read the Garden of Eden parable literally. For example, it may refer to the moment when humans first became self aware, the story suggests that: eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, feeling guilt and shame for the first time, etc.
He (Nagel) is considering what he calls an Aristotelean teleology and panpsychism.
I don't know what that means, but I didn't understand Aristotle's teleological conception, it is ambiguous. Is he suggesting that will is inherent in Nature? - or in Life? Teilhard De Chardin had a similar conception but he was a Christian.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 673
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by ThomasHobbes » August 11th, 2018, 5:15 am

Felix wrote:
August 11th, 2018, 12:48 am
If evolution, then how is it that humans have a sin nature. Do we agree that It didn't happen the way that it is reported to have happened in Genesis? There was no first human couple.
As I said, it's only a problem if you read the Garden of Eden parable literally.
God forbid that we should read literally.
So when it says Jesus died for our sins. It's not literal.
So when it says that he was taken up to heaven. It's not meant literally.

User avatar
ThomasHobbes
Posts: 673
Joined: May 5th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by ThomasHobbes » August 11th, 2018, 5:17 am

Eduk wrote:
August 10th, 2018, 2:12 pm
Do you generally find unthinking demands to work out well for you?

Do you find your complete lack of basic comprehension a problem in life?

Eduk
Posts: 1632
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by Eduk » August 11th, 2018, 5:50 am

Do you find your complete lack of basic comprehension a problem in life?
I have no idea I have no basic comprehension.

Eduk
Posts: 1632
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by Eduk » August 11th, 2018, 5:52 am

wait that's ambigious I meant

I have no idea if my complete lack of basic comprehension is a problem because I have no basic comprehension.

anonymous66
Posts: 154
Joined: January 12th, 2018, 4:01 pm

Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by anonymous66 » August 11th, 2018, 6:46 am

Felix wrote:
August 11th, 2018, 12:48 am
He (Nagel) is considering what he calls an Aristotelean teleology and panpsychism.
I don't know what that means, but I didn't understand Aristotle's teleological conception, it is ambiguous. Is he suggesting that will is inherent in Nature? - or in Life? Teilhard De Chardin had a similar conception but he was a Christian.
I'm still looking into Aristotlean teleology myself. The concept of a conscious universe looks like it is consistent with a panspsychism and teleology. But that's my interpretation (and I kinda like the idea), not Nagel's.

User avatar
Felix
Posts: 2011
Joined: February 9th, 2009, 5:45 am

Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by Felix » August 12th, 2018, 5:53 am

So when it says Jesus died for our sins. It's not literal. So when it says that he was taken up to heaven. It's not meant literally.
Right, well what Christ said and how people interpreted what he said (especially those who made a religion of his teachings) are two different things. Reading the gnostic gospels makes that clear.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

Steve3007
Posts: 4901
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eratosthenes
Location: UK

Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by Steve3007 » August 12th, 2018, 6:12 am

Eduk wrote:I have no idea if my complete lack of basic comprehension is a problem because I have no basic comprehension.
Taking this a bit further: Presumably you don't even have an idea that you have no idea if... etc.

And you can't read what I said above. So why am I saying it?

Eduk
Posts: 1632
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by Eduk » August 12th, 2018, 6:14 am

And you can't read what I said above. So why am I saying it?
I agree :)

Steve3007
Posts: 4901
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eratosthenes
Location: UK

Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by Steve3007 » August 12th, 2018, 6:15 am

Felix wrote:Right, well what Christ said and how people interpreted what he said (especially those who made a religion of his teachings) are two different things. Reading the gnostic gospels makes that clear.
I wonder if this is in any way relevant to the whole "Should we ban Muslim immigration?" thing that's raging away in another topic. Apparently, at least according to some people, it's different for Islam. It needs no interpretation to work out that it's evil. Or so I'm told.

Steve3007
Posts: 4901
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eratosthenes
Location: UK

Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by Steve3007 » August 12th, 2018, 6:16 am

I agree :)
That was a damn quick reply for someone who has no comprehension. I couldn't even send this reply immediately because this website said "You cannot make another post so soon after your last."

Eduk
Posts: 1632
Joined: December 8th, 2016, 7:08 am
Favorite Philosopher: Socrates

Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by Eduk » August 12th, 2018, 6:42 am

I was just randomly writing 'I agree' the fact that it lined up with what you wrote is mere coincidence.

Steve3007
Posts: 4901
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eratosthenes
Location: UK

Re: Is Christianity Destined to Become a Form of Deism?

Post by Steve3007 » August 12th, 2018, 6:46 am

:D Ah! Like a monkey typing out the works of Shakespeare? Or a stopped clock that happens to be telling the right time just when you happen to look at it?

Post Reply