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The speed of light...


 
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Abiathar



Joined: 29 Apr 2008
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Post: #1   PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:52 am    Post subject: The speed of light... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
E=MC^2

Therefore Energy is Mass times the Speed of Light squared. Which also means that energy divided by the speed of light squared is mass. Simple algebra. Thus, Energy has mass.

Light is energy.

Postulate: Anything with mass that attempts to accelerate to the speed of light becomes infinite in mass.

Postulate: A flash of light is created by a lightbulb, it does not exist in the lightbulb until the heat energy creates it. Thus the heat energy accelerates until it produces light.

Therefore, the light from a lightbulb has infinite mass?

I see a flaw, perhaps I am mad.
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Alun



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Post: #2   PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
No, energy does not necessarily have mass. All mass is converted energy; all energy could theoretically be converted into mass. But mass is not the same as energy--more specifically, mass is a specific form of energy. The heat energy that leaves a light bulb as infrared light has zero mass.
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Abiathar



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Post: #3   PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
If light has no mass, then how is it able to create friction? For example, Gamma rays, a form of light, create intense heat and ionic reactions if they interact with an atmosphere.
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Alun



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Post: #4   PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
When two atoms collide, they're really repelling one another as their electron clouds start to overlap (electrons are negatively charged). Part of the momentum of the atoms' initial movement is expended as the atoms vibrate from the collision, and infrared light (or more powerful light, for higher energy collisions) can be released if an electron elevates to a higher energy orbital. This (IR and atomic vibration) is the heat from friction, roughly described at the atomic scale.

Gamma rays do not create friction, so described; instead, they are absorbed by the electrons of the atoms they hit in the atmosphere. Gamma rays are very high energy, so they can knock an electron right out of its atomic orbit, creating an ion (a charged atom). This energy may also be absorbed into bonding electrons or electrons without kicking them off their atoms, in which case the atoms will vibrate and electrons will be elevated to higher energy levels to release lower energy radiation, including infrared radiation. Again, atomic vibration and IR radiation are heat.
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Abiathar



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Post: #5   PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
Quote:
Part of the momentum of the atoms' initial movement is expended as the atoms vibrate from the collision, and infrared light (or more powerful light, for higher energy collisions) can be released if an electron elevates to a higher energy orbital.


Okay, so if I understand your standpoint correctly, the negatively charged electrons repulse one another. During the initial movement, part of the potential energy is released as light. However, that potential energy was, to begin with, not moving at the speed of light, and that potential energy contains within it what are known as "messenger" particles, which do infact have mass.
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Alun



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Post: #6   PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
The concept of potential energy is a bit confusing. Potential energy is just a way of talking about a state that can release energy. Electrons actually move to a more energetically costly orbital when they are hit with light in the right amount. Thus, the 'kinetic' energy of the light is converted into the 'potential' energy of the electron, which can in turn be converted back into light when the electron moves back down to a more stable orbital. But the potential energy of the electron doesn't have mass; it's just a way of saying that the electron is moving faster, or fighting more electric fields, or in some other energetically costly condition. Thus, when the electron leaves that condition, and re-enters the more favorable orbital, the excess energy it has can be released as light.

Does this make sense? I do not know what messenger particles you're speaking of.
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Persecrates



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Post: #7   PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
Light is simply photons, photons have a mass.
Still, they need a certain quantity of energy to be created/expulsed from an atomic system.
Energy is potential mass, it has no mass per se.
Energy is an abstract concept, not a reality.
It's the result of a system excitation (movement and speed of particules knocking against each other): the measure of the intensity of this friction, I guess.

Energy is an unit of measurement like a yard or a gallon are. They don't exist elsewhere than in our minds.
We use these concepts for their practicality, not because they have a 'physical'/empirical reality.

Energy: "the capacity of a physical system to perform work".

Well... That's helpful...
This is one of the numerous concepts we use but don't master (understand).

I found the concept of "potential" energy redundant, even a pleonasm.
As I try to state that energy, in itself is a potential.

Btw, your first premise is false as Einstein was wrong: The speed of light is not constant, nor it seems to be the speed-limit for ANY an ALL particles. Some particles may well be 'quicker' than photons.
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Abiathar



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Post: #8   PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
Persecrates, I have often gone on at great length about the failings of Einstein, in an effort to argue a myriad of topics... so believe me I fully know that he was wrong. The problem is that most take his word due to mathematical evidence provided that has no real foundation in the universe save for the same foundational logic of the following: "It has horns and is skinnier than a cow so it must be a deer"
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Marabod



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Post: #9   PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:29 pm    Post subject: Re: The speed of light... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
Abiathar wrote:
E=MC^2

Therefore Energy is Mass times the Speed of Light squared. Which also means that energy divided by the speed of light squared is mass. Simple algebra. Thus, Energy has mass.

Light is energy.

Postulate: Anything with mass that attempts to accelerate to the speed of light becomes infinite in mass.

Postulate: A flash of light is created by a lightbulb, it does not exist in the lightbulb until the heat energy creates it. Thus the heat energy accelerates until it produces light.

Therefore, the light from a lightbulb has infinite mass?

I see a flaw, perhaps I am mad.


Light does not have "infinitive mass" because "light" does not exist. It is only a human perception of a pulse of photons, and the photons do have some mass but not infinite.

Moreover, a photon has only a mass while it moves, and its mass is zero if it rests - it cannot exist without moving with the speed of light. "Anything" in your statement is the blanket part! A photon has no mass in our sense, it cannot be put on the scales. Ignorance is the author of your theory, not science.
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Unrealist42



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Post: #10   PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List
Light is a tiny part of the electromagnetic spectrum. It is an electromagnetic wave, no different than radio waves or microwaves, or x-rays except we can see them. Photons are just a handy way to express a function of electromagnetic waves, they are not actual matter.

The light from a light bulb is just electromagnetic waves of excess energy created by excited electrons as they move from one energy state to another. Electrons in atoms are able to maintain only certain specific energy levels. When excited enough an electron will jump from one energy state to a higher one and can exit the atom altogether. The atom will then attract another electron which will shed energy to join it.

This jumping about of electrons from one energy state to another can release energy in the form of electromagnetic waves which, depending on the amount of energy and the composition of the material, can be expressed as infrared heat, light, x-rays, etc.

That is a basic explanation but as you can see, matter does not need to accelerate beyond the speed of light to produce light.
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